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"Range advantage is often over-valued..." ???

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  • "Range advantage is often over-valued..." ???

    Hi folks -
    No sooner than I had gotten my way to placing range advantage at the center of my flop c-bet decisionmaking than I heard from Brad W. on his play and explain yesterday that "range advantage shouldn't be ignored, but it's often over-valued." So I think I need to figure out where to place it now. Granted, he said this in response to a 3 minute delayed question about ATs on a K82 rainbow board. I was perplexed that he didn't bet OOP against the button on the flop because I thought we were staring at the definition of range advantage..

    I now see that we would NOT have range advantage upon realizing that the button 3 bet to $85 and we called.

    So should I conclude that we WOULD have range advantage that would lead us to bet if we had bet and gotten a call and then this flop??

    Thanks for helping the addle brained climb the learning curve!!

    Attached Files

  • #2
    I think what he was maybe referring to is that players just see a range advantage and act like all range advantages are the same. Jonathan in his Masterclass teaches that range advantages come in different sizes: Strong, Moderate, and Weak. Where most players may act like they are all the same or over value a moderate advantage and play as if they had a strong advantage. This may have been his context with "over valuing" range advantage.

    In this hand, if the button just flatted, you would have a weak range advantage. With a weak range advantage OOP Jonathan recommends checking often and only betting premiums and draws.

    Since he 3 bet and you flatted, now he has the range advantage on this board, since he has KK/AA/AK in his range and you do not. Your range is capped at 88. So your only option is to check to him on the flop.

    In the Masterclass, Jonathan has tons of videos explaining what to do IP, OOP, with a weak, moderate and strong advantage and how to tell them apart.

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    • #3
      Thanks for this. Very helpful. This DOES bring back the memories of the differentiations Jonathan made about when to c-bet full range - and when to just c-bet premiums and draws. The information goes in - but this helps reinforce this idea. As to why this would be a weak range advantage - we DO have a non coordinated board - so that helps PFR range advantage - but is it that the 8 and 2 more likely hit preflop callers range?? Can you say another word or two about why this is a weak range advantage? Dry board I think is one. But I think you're seeing something else here as well and I'd like to improve with my classification of boards. Thanks!! Is K-top card another - as opposed to A?? Possible villain may be more likely to have a King than an Ace??


      Thanks!!!

      Comment


      • jjpregler
        jjpregler commented
        Editing a comment
        If you go back to Jonathan's explanation is that when we are called IP their range is also a fairly strong range. So we will have not as great a range advantage when called IP as opposed to when we are called OOP. If we raise EP and the BB calls, on a board like this we have a strong range advantage. Or if there is a limper that we raise to isolate. Typically their ranges are wide and weak.

        But when we raise and get called IP their ranges are not wide and only slightly weaker than ours if you account for the 3 bet hands they do not have because they called.

    • #4
      If this was a CO open and B call, assuming competent opponent, we have a 51% equity advantage on this board. When you add positional disadvantage we need to be doing a ton of checking here. In general as the PFR when I get called by an IP Villain I'm checking my range looking to check raise polarized. When you consider ATs in this spot makes no better hand fold, AJ+ is going to float IP a ton, no pair is folding. And it has good enough equity against Villain's likely bluffs and even some of their thin value bets, I would definitely check AT here. I would probably XR AT BDFD here at some frequency

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