Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Opening Ax suited

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Opening Ax suited

    I’ve been wondering... what is the theory behind opening with Ax suited from EP and MP? To me it seems that you need a good flop for your range to continue, or else bluff or check-fold.

  • #2
    1) You do it when you are deep stacked. Your value comes from implied odds when you make the nut flush.
    2) I don't open many AXs from early position. I add those in middle position for the most part.
    3) EP ATs+ and A5s.
    4) MP/LP AXs

    Comment


    • #3
      In early position, a hand like A5 suited has value based of the implied odds for your flush, as JJ stated, but also when you make two pair or a straight. If the flop is 234, it is very likely you will end up with the nut straight because it is unlikely your opponent would called an early position raiser with 65 and those hands would have to be suited. Since you hold a 5, that only leaves 3 combos left of 65 suited. It also varies your play to keep your opponent guessing about what you open with. It also gives you have the ability to force another marginal ace off their hand on later streets.

      In mid position, more suited aces are added to your range for the above reasons, as well as the fact other people have folded. That means you have less people behind you and it becomes a little easier to win the pot preflop or have a better ace than someone calling with a wider range of aces in later position.

      Thanks!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by jjpregler View Post
        1) You do it when you are deep stacked. Your value comes from implied odds when you make the nut flush.
        2) I don't open many AXs from early position. I add those in middle position for the most part.
        3) EP ATs+ and A5s.
        4) MP/LP AXs
        I had understood that if you are shallow stacked then playing more polarised is required, and actually you play more hands overall. Obviously this reduces the implied odds, but the advice is confusing me for hands such as Axs, a little help in clearing up my confusion!!?

        Comment


        • jjpregler
          jjpregler commented
          Editing a comment
          I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. In regards to the original question it was about when to open the pot with these hands. You never open the pot with a polarized range, it is always a linear range to open the pot. (Except for the SB v BB strategies, but that is completely different than the question posed here.).

      • #5
        Originally posted by Kwisatz78 View Post

        I had understood that if you are shallow stacked then playing more polarised is required, and actually you play more hands overall. Obviously this reduces the implied odds, but the advice is confusing me for hands such as Axs, a little help in clearing up my confusion!!?
        I am in agreement with the original response that said you like to play suited aces when deep stacked. This is because when you hit them you can win a lot. They also over-realize their equity since it's quite obvious when you have hit and when you have not hit so you don't have to sit there wondering whether your one pair is good or not (for example).

        To your direct point, you thought short stacks have to play more polarized, this may be the case HOWEVER the makeup of your polarized range still changes such that draws (even the best ones) are worth less and made hands (even the marginal ones) are worth more. You are hoping to win unimproved with a short stack, or even get a fold, since you have less to gain by improving. This doesn't mean you aren't polar, but when you are betting the bottom of your polar range the value comes from the bluff, not from the draw (of course it comes from both, but i mean compared to when you are deep, because then the value comes more from hitting the big draw).
        Last edited by RCMorea; 04-12-2021, 08:22 PM.

        Comment


        • #6
          I still don't understand why this line of questioning. This is about Raise First In. RFI is always linear. It is just that the linear values of big unsuited hands and suited hands change as stacks get shallower.

          We were not discussing 3/bet spots where you either purposely polarize or linearize your range.

          Comment


          • #7
            Originally posted by jjpregler View Post
            I still don't understand why this line of questioning. This is about Raise First In. RFI is always linear. It is just that the linear values of big unsuited hands and suited hands change as stacks get shallower.

            We were not discussing 3/bet spots where you either purposely polarize or linearize your range.
            I think my query is in regards to when you said "2) I don't open many AXs from early position. I add those in middle position for the most part." Surely if you are opening with Ax suited then you are opening with a polarised range? Also when short stacked how would you play these hands when the implied odds are not correct?

            Also can you explain a little more about what you mean by the linear values change at shallow stacks?

            Comment


            • jjpregler
              jjpregler commented
              Editing a comment
              Ok, when we open a pot, we are always betting in a linear range. If we had a split range such as raising the top, limping the middle and raising the bottom, that would be a polarized range. I think you understand that.

              But since we never open limp (unless BvB) we do not have polarized ranges when we raise first in, it is always linear.

              Now when I said linear values change, I meant it this way: when we are deep stacked speculative hands like AXs, suited connectors and small pairs, have more value than offsuit broadways like QJo/QTo and so on.

              However the speculative hands have more value due to the implied odds that those hands have. If you open 3x from 100BBs stacks, there is another 97 BBs behind in potential value when your hand flops the nuts. The AXS and suited connectors thrive in pots where the implied odds is 20:1 or greater.

              However, when we get down to a 35 BBs stack and you min-raise, now you are betting 2 BBs with a 33 BBs stack behind and now your implied odds are only about 17:1.

              It is in this area that speculative hands lose value thereby making the off suited broadway hands now higher in the linear value range. So as stacks shrink the ranges change from speculative hands to high card hands that can flop top pair. In low SPR spots, top pair hands have more value.
          Working...
          X