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Quiz #870- Who else would have folded the flop?

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  • Quiz #870- Who else would have folded the flop?

    I watched this quiz and I think the first mistake was the call on the flop. Tristan describes the villain as a tight amateur. If that is the type of player you think he is, then folding the flop to the check raise is the right play. Check raising the flop is super strong after he 3 bet preflop. I think the very worse hand this particular villain is ever going to show up with here is JJ. I really don't think he would check raise 88-1010. I think he bets 88-1010 for fear of being outdrawn. So the fold should have been on the flop after the check raise.

    As Tristan discusses in the video, the turn shove/call was very bad. The only likely hand he could have that you beat got there.

    So who else folds to the check raise on the flop?

    Thanks!
    Last edited by NJpokermike36; 04-21-2021, 01:23 PM.

  • #2
    why bet the flop at all if going to fold to a check raise? Little surprised to learn calling off turn was GTO. I would have called off. Why not just not bet flop?
    Last edited by sumdimfarc; 04-21-2021, 12:16 AM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by sumdimfarc View Post
      why bet the flop at all if going to fold to a check raise? Little surprised to learn calling off turn was GTO. I would have called off. Why not just not bet flop?
      I think you have to bet there. The preflop aggressor checked, so you should try to take the pot down. Queens are too strong to check in this spot. I would hate to check and have an A or K come on the turn because I would not know what to do if he bet.

      Since he is a tight player, he might check/fold when he misses.

      Thanks!

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      • #4
        I don't like the sizing on the flop and I don't like his explanation lol. For one thing he says we're OOP which we are not. For another thing his point about 30 not being enough that we might get floated is not a concern to me, in position, because we're putting them in a spot where they are going to over-fold, they won't float that wide.

        This is my range CO v the SB 3-bet
        Click image for larger version

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        Based on this we have all the sets, we have 2pair, we have all the overpairs except AA KK. Assuming villain is betting his premium hands at least some percent of the time I would bet 66+ 76s for value (38 combos,) and bluff all the unmade hands (36 combos) check AKo AQ AJs ATs A9s 33-55 (54 combos) With this polarized range I would be going large like 67% pot usually, but if I assumed Villain traps on some level I would go with the 33% size assuming we have less of a nut advantage and are going to get check raised more often.

        I think we have to call the check raise. MDF we definitely need to. And if Villain does this with TT+ and no bluffs we still have the equity to call, IP. Unless we have a read that they literally never 3-bet or check raise without the good then we can consider folding.

        I think this becomes an easy fold on the turn. Villain isn't shoving TT here, and JJ is now a set. We need Villain to be bluffing with like 11 combos which is bluffing ~40% of the time....no way lol

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        • #5
          I think we have to call the check raise. MDF we definitely need to. And if Villain does this with TT+ and no bluffs we still have the equity to call, IP. Unless we have a read that they literally never 3-bet or check raise without the good then we can consider folding.
          I think the key here is Tristan describes the villain as a "Tight Amateur". I just don't see that type of player check raising with TT+. I am not even sure JJ or QQ is a check raise for this villain. I think he probably plays them straightforward and leads the flop.

          Even if it is TT+, that makes it 50-50, two hands you crush and two hands that crush you. To me the thing that sways my decision is the fact it is a check raise in a 3 bet pot. I just think this is such a strong play, in a 3 bet pot, from this type of player. I would be willing to give up my equity in the few times I am wrong and folded the best hand. I believe if this scenario came up 100 times against this type of villain, he is going to have you beat 9 times out of 10.

          Thanks!

          Comment


          • Dilly
            Dilly commented
            Editing a comment
            I agree with everything you're saying we're just interpreting the description differently. And I 100% agree the opponent you're describing is a huge part of population at live low stakes games, if they're that tight we should fold. I just think there's also tight recs who play relatively good cards, and play TP+ and good draws like the supernuts in which case we just can't fold. We just don't have all the info on the game because we only have a vague description lol

        • #6
          I chose "call" preflop, expecting to be told I should raise. To my surprise, Tristan agrees with me.

          I bet the flop for 30 because I want to be called, which Tristan says won't get villain to fold, which is correct, because I want to be called, but whatevs. In fact, maybe he'll call for the larger amount so, I can live with this answer.

          Once check-raised, well, we said the amateur is tight but we didn't say he's passive. Still tight amateurs usually are at least a bit passive. Otherwise we should relabel him. I don't think it's a clear fold (don't think it's clear either way), but most of what Tristan says about how our opponent may be bluffing and we can get more information later would apply a lot better to a loose player than a tight one. For sure I don't think folding is clearly wrong (it is scored as zero).

          On the turn I fold against the tight amateur. I'm not surprised to hear that calling is GTO. But I am folding anyway against this player. Apparently that is the right answer, full credit.

          So...I don't necessarilly fold the flop, but I don't think it's a zero score if you do fold it.

          I still think about many of these quizzes what I already said once elsewhere...all the quizes by one pro should be taken by another pro...if they don't agree on the answers then they need to rework the quiz. Otherwise it's a matter of opinion, which it really shouldn't be if you are calling it a quiz.

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          • Dilly
            Dilly commented
            Editing a comment
            You're right on about the flop, I expected him to say something about generating more value by betting large with a polarized range then he says 30 is too small to generate folds...I was lost lol. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm literally almost never making half pot bets

        • #7
          I chose check on the flop, but that's from my perspective of micro online, I've never played live. When I run into these tight players who 3bet something like 2% of the time, I'm just assuming AA, KK, AK. In this situation, I'm looking to either set mine, or check down as much as possible against AK.

          The only exception I would make to this would be if I had seen him just get cooler'd. I often see a tight player turn into a maniac after someone beats them by hitting a 3-outter.

          If I did bet and get raised on the flop, I'm just folding, but again, that's against a micro online nit. Also, this is why I always note how players handle pocket pairs and AK when I see their cards at showdown, those notes can come in very handy later on.

          Edit: I don't see the point of bet/calling flop to fold on the turn to a J. The backstory for the hand doesn't change my opinion, but I'm not the pro
          Last edited by LBPokerNA; 04-30-2021, 02:36 PM.

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