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"Plays well post-flop" ....????

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  • "Plays well post-flop" ....????

    Anyone have words of wisdom as to just what the heck this phrase means, given of course that we can't know ahead of time just what the flop will be??

    Would love to see Jonathan discuss this concept - where it's applicable, where it's over-applied / under-applied. - again - given that we just can't know ahead of time what the flop is going to be.

    Thanks guys!!

  • #2
    A bit confused by this question, it means they play well post-flop, they tend to make correct decisions in post-flop play.

    Someone who plays well post-flop is going to defend above MDF against competent opponents and aggressive opponents, and exploitatively fold against nits or on under-bluffed boards. Someone who plays poorly post-flop is going to fold too often allowing Villain to auto-profit, or call too often and let themselves get value bet to death.

    Someone who plays well post-flop is going to check raise with a wide range including junky bluffs on board where they have a nut advantage, generating a ton of fold equity and letting them build the pot with their premium holdings. Someone who plays poorly post-flop might only check raise the nuts making them very face up and easy to play against, and making their check calling range harder to defend.

    Obviously there are different flops that create different situations depending on the ranges at play, but in general we say someone plays well post-flop if they know the correct decision in many of the post-flop spots

    Comment


    • #3
      I think the OP means a specific hand that "plays well".

      Lets take a hand that plays well JTs, and a hand that doesn't play well 72o.

      JTs can be described as playing well post flop as it can flop straight draws, flush draws, and strong (often top) pairs. This means that we're going to flop a lot of equity on a lot of different flops and can easily make good, +ev decisions.

      72o does not play well. It rarely flops straight or flush draws ( itwould require all 3 flop cards to be monotone/running) and these would be weaker draws anyway. Also, any pair made is going to be weak.

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      • #4
        When Jonathan refers to hands that play well post flop, he is referring to sets of hands that will be able to get to the river with some equity a certain portion of the time. A hand like QTs plays better post flop than QTo, since there will be more opportunities for QTs to make it to the river.

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        • #5
          I appreciate the guidance on this concept and particularly the idea that the value may be more likely to get to the river -- short of that I was having difficulty distinguishing between overall EV pre-flop and playing well post-flop -- which in a way seems to be characteristic of the 72o - which of course is worse than JTs - but that's worse than JTs pre-flop AND post-flop - so hard to distinguish between - "it's just a crappy holding" and "it doesnt' play well after the flop."

          The latter definition from jjpregler does offer a conceptual distinction - though the example stumps me there again - in that we just know that QJs is already better than QJo - pre-flop as well. It seems perhaps again there that the likelihood of it getting to the river kind of seems one and the same with its already existing greater EV / equity. I sense there is a piece that I'm missing to distinguish the "likely to get to the river" piece from the "it's already significantly better" piece. Many thanks - probably I'm not the only one working to absorb this idea....

          Comment


          • jjpregler
            jjpregler commented
            Editing a comment
            It is not just about raw equity. It is about playability post flop. It is hard to really define if you already do not understand the meaning.

            With QJo versus 98s - QJo has 60% equity versus 98s, but 98s plays better post flop. When 98s misses, there is no doubt about the hand value. But it will make flush draws and BDFDs and straight draws and be able to continue to the river more often. When QJo misses, it totally bricks most of the time.

            But it also depends on stack sizes. Everything I just said is false at 30BBs stacks compared to 100BBs stacks.

          • jjpregler
            jjpregler commented
            Editing a comment
            Basically in short, AXs and suited connectors are the hands that Jonathan talks about playing well post flop. These are not hands high in the value category, but they have better equity realization than some of the better equity unsuited hands.
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