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Are the charts too loose for 6-max at the micros?

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  • Are the charts too loose for 6-max at the micros?

    I had been getting killed over about 12K hands at NL2, sticking pretty closely with the charts for preflop play. That had me playing around 25/18/9 preflop. Most of the calls were in the blinds. It felt like I was ending up playing a lot of hands OOP with marginal cards.

    I decided to play much tighter than the charts out of the blinds and, over a very small sample, the results were a lot better. (I was 22/21/14 after shifting a bit in the blinds.)

    I know all of this is still too small of a sample to really judge.

    Anyone else have any thoughts on the 6-max cash charts?

  • #2
    I'm reasonably confident the charts are fine, they actually have us defending the BB reasonably tight because of the rake. Remember many of the holdings are defended because it's slightly more EV than just folding, and it's often fine to check fold flop with our worst marginal and junk--especially against opponents who under-bluff. When I first started grinding micros on ACR I told myself I was doing to defend the BB a little tighter and not 3-bet as much as the charts recommend and I was hemorrhaging money from the BB. I would definitely recommend sticking to the charts, especially when it comes to 3-betting.

    Being perfectly honest it is very likely you're making a ton of pre and post-flop mistakes, and micro cash is relatively tough, opponents are going to capitalize on them. It's taken me 3.5 months, ~250 hours of play, ~100 hours of study, and 140K hands to go from a huge loser at 10NL to a tiny winner. And that's after being a PCP member since August of 2019 brought me from a losing live cash and online MTT player to a winning player at both of those. It's a really tough game, just keep getting 1% better every day and eventually it gets better, I think lol. But I don't think looking for these kinds of adjustments is time best spent if you're fundamental strategy is still far from refined.

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    • #3
      The charts are fine for the micros. I've used them this past year at 5NL and 10NL FastForward and traditional tables.

      What is your winrate bb/100 hands from the blinds? No-one ever has a positive number and theoretically anything less than -100/100 in the BB and -50/100 in the SB and you are making money over just folding 100%

      How you play post flop from the blinds is where the difference is made, and this is a complex situation. You need to know when its best to give up after 3 bettting, or when to c/c or c/r ect ect This is where spending time with the homework questions helps you understand your range, and what action to take with each part of your range and on different board structures.

      It took me about 20k hands at 5NL to go from hovering around break-even to wining at +12bb/100

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      • #4
        Originally posted by turbulence View Post
        what is your winrate bb/100 hands from the blinds? No-one ever has a positive number and theoretically anything less than -100/100 in the bb and -50/100 in the sb and you are making money over just folding 100%
        bb: -68.5
        sb: -19.1

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        • Turbulence
          Turbulence commented
          Editing a comment
          Ok, so you are doing ok from the SB (some room for improvement but acceptable). Your main focus needs to be on improving from the BB. I would say that you could get that down to -30bb/100 initially which will massively improve your overall winrate.

          Over a 67k hand sample at 5NL my winrate from the blinds is
          Big B -11.20/100
          Small B -10.75/100

        • Dilly
          Dilly commented
          Editing a comment
          In November I really buckled down on the BB play because I was also hemorrhaging there, a big part of it is just be more aggressive. Learn the implementable GTO ranges and don't hesitate to 3-bet. Also recognizing the boards where we can check raise a ton is paramount

      • #5
        I definitely need some work from the BB

        To boil it down more.

        My VPIP is 30 my 3-bet is 9 from the BB. Here are charts showing my calls and raises. Obviously this isn't split up by the position of the raiser, which would be more useful. I can go back and do that when I have some more time.

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        • Dilly
          Dilly commented
          Editing a comment
          How did you pull this graph and does it exist in HM3 lol?

        • Turbulence
          Turbulence commented
          Editing a comment
          I take it chart 1 is the 3bet and chart 2 are the calls.
          a) you are raising far to many trash Ax hands - these should just be defended v CO (only some of them) and BTN, the rest of the time fold them! they will just get ou in trouble and burn cash. - instead you need to 3bet 100% with KQs, KJs, QJs v every position.
          b) It appears that some portion of the time you are trying to trap with your best hands pre-flop, no need for this just 3 bet them for value 100%
          c) I think you might be defending too many of your trashy suited hands - this is dependant on the position of the open, we need to be a lot tighter v the LJ & HJ, but can defend wider v CO and BTN.

        • JFletch2323
          JFletch2323 commented
          Editing a comment
          Dilly, that’s poker tracker.

          Turbulence, last night I filtered it out by the position of the raiser and compared it to the charts. It looks like I’m 3-betting at about the right percentage but not calling nearly enough.

          As for some of those holes among the premium hands, it’s possible that happens because there’s a raise and a 3bet in front of me. The way I filtered it was when there’s a raise and NOT a call, so a few hands slip in where there’s a raise AND 3bet.

          I also find myself unsure in a lot of spots when there’s a raise and call. I remember JL teaching that you shouldn’t just call really loosely in the BB when it’s multi-way, even closing the action and getting good odds.

      • #6
        I'm pretty sure someone posed this exact question to JustGTO a few months back. I remember his response being along the lines of "these charts are tight enough for small stakes. Whatever you lose in rake you make up for by your opponents making more mistakes."

        I'll note that I've followed the charts to the best of my ability with good results. My only deviation is probably to play tighter from the BB. The charts assume you're facing a 2.5x raise. I see most villains raise to at least 3x - some 3.5 or 4x - and call tighter in those situations.

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