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Value shove the river

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  • Value shove the river

    In this video, he value shoves the river with a blocker to the flush and middple pair.
    I'm a bit lost as to why this isn't just a check on the river. Villains could easily have marginal Jacks on the flop, though assumption is they're also betting the river with that?
    Seems risky in a tournament:
    https://pokercoaching.com/quizzes-view/?id=1095

  • #2
    He is playing against another reg that he clearly has a decent amount of history with, and therefore he is known to the other reg. In order to protect his value shoving range on the river he has to have a bluff shoving range as well, otherwise he becomes very easy to play against i.e. if he never bluff shoves on the river and his opponent picks up on this he can play perfectly against him in future situations.

    In this spot he assumes his marginal made hand doesn't have enough showdown value to win the pot frequently enough to warrant checking back. But, he does have a good blocker to the effective nuts, therefore his opponent doesn't have the nuts so he can turn his hand into a bluff. This puts his opponent to the test now, but also in the future when they meet again in a similar situation. If he is fully balanced in this type of spot it makes his opponent indifferent between calling or folding i.e. there is no EV difference between the 2 options over the long term.

    The difference between these pro's and us is they find these spots and plays (that are a calculated risk) to pick up chips / pots and build a stack that we probably wouldn't.

    Comment


    • alma holzhertin
      alma holzhertin commented
      Editing a comment
      I don't thin that is it. In fact, I watched it again. Affleck made no mention of having history, not enough show down value or meta game. ' no ev difference over long run' could not be further from what Affleck was saying. I liked the point affleck tried to make soooo much that I can't just standby while you shit all over it.
      Last edited by alma holzhertin; 12-29-2020, 11:18 PM.

    • Turbulence
      Turbulence commented
      Editing a comment
      @alma holzhertin
      Thanks for that very useful and constructive feedback - I'm sure the original poster has learnt a lot from your insights and will make great improvements to their game from them. Oh wait a minute, you didn't actually offer any insight or knowledge or even speculation as to what Matt Affleck was trying to teach in this clip - so please enlighten use all with your wisdom. But be careful, someone might not agree and shit all over it.

    • seagrub
      seagrub commented
      Editing a comment
      Originally posted by Turbulence View Post
      In this spot he assumes his marginal made hand doesn't have enough showdown value to win the pot frequently enough to warrant checking back. But, he does have a good blocker to the effective nuts, therefore his opponent doesn't have the nuts so he can turn his hand into a bluff.
      In the quiz Matt specifically states that he is shoving for value and not bluffing. He believes he has the best hand most of the time here, and by not shoving you miss a huge amount of value.

  • #3
    Which marginal jacks could villain realistically have that he raised pre and checked flop with? Maybe the few combos of J9 and J8 suited. Any other reasonable Jack gives him Top pair/Good kicker or 2 pair Jacks and tens. Surely villain is c-betting those on such a wet, draw heavy flop and would also most likely value bet the river himself?

    Comment


    • #4
      Villain pre flop:

      On the flop I give him this:


      He checks, so he gets to the turn with:

      Out of that, given we checked, he probably bets:

      He gets to the river with:

      and checks with:
      So, it's a worse T or a 6 I guess but more combos of 6s, maybe weighted more towards T's with a small stack?
      Last edited by Bentley; 12-30-2020, 03:22 PM.

      Comment


      • #5
        you're not the villain. what are the charts for?

        Comment


        • Bentley
          Bentley commented
          Editing a comment
          It's a value shove, you have to know what villain's range is

        • alma holzhertin
          alma holzhertin commented
          Editing a comment
          It's value shove based on Affleck's estimation of what villain has. I don't get what you're doing.

        • Bentley
          Bentley commented
          Editing a comment
          I'm estimating what villain has

      • #6
        I had done this previously and got a big fat 0 on the river (10,5,10,0). So I was in camp check river too but I don't remember the quiz. I'll have to look at it again. I feel like I disagreed with the turn scoring more so than the river tho.

        No, I had mis-clicked the turn lol
        Last edited by kkep; 01-03-2021, 09:58 AM.

        Comment


        • #7
          I'm probably still in the check camp myself today. But shoving is aligned with where I want to take my game ot.

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