Q4 in the Big Blind

[Richlizard]

Hi guys.

I don't post too much but I do enjoy reading the debates on hands. Now I have one for myself.

I was watching a live commentary on a poker league tournament last night and this scenario happened.

Blinds were 200/400 and there was an EP raise to 1000 (he was holding AA).

2 MP callers and got to the BB holding Q4o.

Now I know if I was sat there playing and not doing any deep calculations this would be a simple fold. I have heard Jonathan in his commentary say before that if he is in the BB with A3 to a single raise then he would call. But if there had been callers then he would fold as they are very likely to have called with weak aces... which dominate A3! So I assume the same logic applies to junk like this.

Anyway, in this case the BB called with Q4o. The flop came Q43 and the AA lost 70% of his stack. This is when the debate began. There was a female commentator who first of all said that the AA guy had not raised enough. I think this is results-oriented and will brush over that. But she also said that the Q4 in the BB was an awful call and he got lucky. It was at this point her fellow commentator disagreed and the chat was filled with comments like she is talking rubbish because it was a simple call with such good pot odds. But I can't help think she was 100% correct. Terrible call imho.

So I decided to dig out my poker coaching charts. And although it doesn't bring pot odds into the scenario, Q4 appears to be nowhere near a call in BB to an EP raise. In fact, Q9 is a fold!!!

So I am now here asking your expert opinions. Should you now be calling just because there are 2 callers in this pot or are they all being very results-oriented and not really thinking it through?

Oh and they were all around 100bb deep if that makes any difference.

Thank you for listening

[TB27]

Note: I'm using the general "you" in this reply. I know this isn't your hand, but I'm saying you for anyone making the argument that calling is trivial.

I'd say Q4 definitely go very lucky. The problem with these hands is even if you are getting the right odds to call, hands like these wind up being reverse implied odds hands. You might hit your top pair and have to fold because your kicker is no good. You might hit your 2 pair, shovel money in, and then be counterfeited. You are getting poor immediate odds for the hand (need more than 20-1 for unsuited unconnected hands, and you are getting like 8-1) and the implied odds you believe you're getting are actually reverse implied odds.

With 2 callers as well, the chances of you be dominated by a larger Q is higher. I'd rather call with a 76s in this spot than a Q4 because the chances of being dominated are a lot less, and if I hit the board its hard to be behind.

With Q4, what is your plan post flop? Hard for it to hit, nothing to draw to, so you most likely you will be folding or naked bluffing. And in this case you'd be naked bluffing into a strong range from EP.

[LondonImp]

Yeah this is pretty much spot on.

[Richlizard]

Thanks TB. This was pretty much my argument although her only response at the time was "Q4 is shit" so without backup she pretty much got hammered.