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  • Stupid question

    So guys, and gals, I have a stupid question for you. I remember being told at one point that when we have a draw, we should build the pot. Is this still accurate or have I missed the "but" in this rule of thumb?

    The reason I ask is, against certain player types, this just seems like a losing play. For instance we're on the button with 2 calling stations in the blinds. We open to 3bb with 67cc and bb calls. The flop come 89Qr. Villain checks, we bet 1/3 or 2/3 or 1.5 or any number that we pick and they call because well, they're massive stations! Turn comes a 2, they check, we bet they call. The river comes a J, they check, we check and they have J4...

    Doesn't it make more sense to check behind on flop and turn against this player type and only bet our value hands and best bluffs on the river? I'm asking for a friend : )

  • #2
    Don't bluff calling stations

    Comment


    • #3
      Work it out with the range analyzer. I think you'll find that 67 wouldn't be one of our draws. Might even be checking some Qx combos.

      I could be wrong about that too but off the top of my head I wouldn't be using 67 and I'm probably checking most of my naked Qx combos too.


      Comment


      • radubalaj
        radubalaj commented
        Editing a comment
        Why would 67 not be a draw here?

      • kkep
        kkep commented
        Editing a comment
        I suggested that I wasn't sure. I didn't range this. But on a flop that's likely to hit one or both V's it's not going to be at or even near the top of my list.
        I don't think we have a range or nut advantage....
        They can have a lot of Qx, 2 pair and some better draws of their own that just might c/r us. On top of that the cards I'm not loving are TJK.
        Last edited by kkep; 02-05-2020, 07:13 AM.

    • #4
      It needs to be said again, DO NOT bluff calling stations

      That is the balanced "GTO" approach: group draws and value hands so you are hard to play against. That is, if you are against tough good opponents.
      Once you know the players you are up against have some sort of a flaw, you need to exploit them.

      Against calling stations:
      - do not bluff
      - try to extract as much value as possible when you have a good hand (as in bet them wider for value than you normally would)

      Comment


      • kkep
        kkep commented
        Editing a comment
        I think we still need to be betting our best draws. I know am, calling station or not. I just won't bluff them on the river.

      • radubalaj
        radubalaj commented
        Editing a comment
        Agreed. Bet for one or two streets. Much easier if you have position, you can elect to check on the turn after betting flop.

    • #5
      ...you know there are some days when I think to myself Jay, you're a pretty smart guy. Today is not one of those days. I completely missed the idea that we shouldn't bluff calling stations on every street, not just the river.

      Oh
      My
      God...

      However! Interestingly enough, kkep brought up a very interesting point, that 67s on this board may not even be a bluff, therefore if I'm betting 67 as a bluff then I'm the one making the mistake by cbetting too wide...

      On the other hand, by checking behind flop and turn, we still hold the ability to control the size of the pot and potentially over bet pot on the river with a lot of our range. This would ultimately polarize our range and put a lot of pressure on villain when they have a hand like J4, QT, KJ...

      Thoughts?

      Comment


      • #6
        One way to think about it is this. You don't want to bluff calling stations. But even calling stations will fold a lot of hands when they have absolutely nothing.

        In a BB vs BTN scenario, I don't mind betting the flop on boards that tend to miss opponent. But once the calling station opponent has called 1 bet, they are letting you know that they now have something. So you don't need to double and triple barrel against calling stations but I do think you can be cbetting the flop still as long as you reduce the frequency of your bluffs.

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