Calling Off Tournament w/ K5o

[Dman0825]

Hello everyone, I am wondering what your thoughts are on a situation that happened to me last night in a small stakes mtt. There is 16 people left and I have 13bbs in the bb position. I'm dealt k5o and it folds around to the sb and he shoves which he has me covered. I don't recall how many bbs he had total. I looked at the push/fold app which suggests to call in this spot. The player in the sb had done this 2 or 3 throughout the tournament but also folded to me in the bb about the same amount. My read is he is not getting out of line with his shoves. My personal opinion is that most players don't shove enough in the sb so I feel as if this should be a fold. I certainly think k7 or k8o or better is an easier call. I called, he shows a5o and I'm out of the tournament. What are your thoughts?

Thanks,
Dustin

[RealJPB]

Any payout implications or bubble implications? Probably doesn’t matter but was just curious.

I agree with your assessment. People don’t shove wide enough. It’s not like you have 3bb, you still have a ton of playability. In general in tournaments you’d prefer to shove vs to call. I’d always fold here. As Jonathan likes to say, don’t blindly follow charts.

[Dman0825]

We were already in the money, top 60ish got paid so yes there was pay jumps every 3 from 10th-18th but I certainly always play for the win. I agree with your logic of shoving vs calling off your stack. It was probably minus ev but if we never made mistakes we knew would improve. Thanks.

[thereitis]

I believe the push fold charts are purely GTO ranges with no ICM implications.
1) ICM means if somebody has you covered and they shove on you, you should call tighter. ICM is highly dependent on the payout structure which we have no info on.

This is a good free resource I use for ICM analysis. https://www.holdemresources.net/mttcalculator You plug in estimates for remaining stack sizes and prize pool. Then you pretend one of the stacks is you and try simulating a double up where your stack doubles plus the blinds and another stack loses the same amount you gained. Then you look at the ICM$ change of folding vs doubling up.

In some spots you'll find the value of doubling up is somewhat close to 2x the value of your stack if you fold. That means there are very little ICM implications. In other cases, when you double up, you only gain 1.5x the value of your stack in ICM. That means there is heavy ICM pressure and you don't want to call off lightly.

2) Facing non GTO opponents mean you need to adjust your calling range to their ranges. One way to do that is instead of assuming the person shoving is in the SB, figure out what range you think they are shoving and pretend they are that position. E.g, if all you do is assume they are CO instead of SB because their shoving range is more like a CO range, that changes your calling range from top 40% of hands to top 20% of hands.

In general with 13bb, I would almost never call off with K5o. I probably call off a little too tight but I think there is a ton of value in having a 13bb stack. You can still reshove open raises, shove all in. There are lots of ways to make chips that I believe would be more profitable than calling off with K5o.

[1Warlock]

Get ICMIZER and work with it. They also have a good push/fold app to train on. Best tool you can get if you want to work on short-stacked MTT/SnG strategies. IMO, people are shoving far tighter than they should and that means you have to call tighter as well. At 13BB with this specific hand, I am not making the call if I assume villain is shoving a tighter than optimal range (and they almost always are).

[N I V V Y]

13bb is a lot in late stages (unless a turbo or super turbo structure). K5 is a hand you want to be shovving with not calling with. Even 72o has 35% equity verses you.

The way I have evolved in MTT's is to look back very closely at my bust out hands and really go through in fine detail if I need to, particularly in Final Table or near Final Table spots - This is after all where marginal ev mistakes can lead to huge $ mistakes. It really bugs me to know that I handed my tournament equity over to some fish gambling with a hand I am folding pre flop, 70%+ of the time in most situations.

But first I always ask myself , "how satisfied am I that the hand i staked my entire tourney life on, staked my chance of winning a decent sum on, was really a hand worthy of such a risk"

K5o would take some justification.

If i was one of the very shortest stacks and I knew the sb was shovving very wide. that would be a fine reason to call with K5o.

As ever in Poker, the answers always depend on a number of factors. But, in tourney life threatening situations, I would rather go to war with something a little better if I have the option.

It is mind blowing how often in tournies you put most of your chips at risk with a somewhat marginal proposition, because of a lack of patience and the feeling that "I need to do something soon". You lose and are left with 3bb and then to rub it in you get dealt AA next hand!! AA is an extreme example, but it does happen and you get the bigger picture. Patience.

You can be more patient with a short stack in MTT, especially in near final table spots, than you ever thought possible. Sooner or later a good situation will come up that you are happy to stake your tourney life on. That doesn't have to mean being dealt 2 good cards. And it doesn't mean it has to work out.

ICM IZER and push/fold aps are all well and good. But they only give you an absolute number on one exact spot. What they don't factor in is your odds of getting into a much better spot within the next 10 or 20 or 30 hands or so.

In any event, even playing 13 bb shouldn't mean all in or fold poker by default. Often times in tournies a small raise from a short stack, even verses much bigger stacks is seen as a sign of strength.

I have min raised UTG as the shortest stack (10-15bb) at a final table many time with garbage planning to fold to a raise. And it gets through. This happens well if the big stacks are in the right seats. For example. The big stack is in Btn sb or bb. All the others are
a) happy to let the big stack bust you and get a free ladder up
b) scared that if they take you on the big stack behind can put them at risk

There are a huge amount of opportunities to survive with short stacks and make some moves while you patiently wait for that "happy to bust with" situation, if you know where to look.

[CrazyEddie Reloaded]

was going to ask you the stack sizes around the table .. but you don't even remember the sb.


patience is overrated....

[N I V V Y]

Cool. That will help. Good of you to take the time.

[CrazyEddie Reloaded]

from BB, you have a chance to a full double up ... only got one opponent ... in some sense.. maybe better than jamming AQ into 4 players... or 3bet jamming AQ over a raise...


huge amount of opportunity as short stack ?? having no fold equity and all .. what u smoking ?


you have to be more patient as short stack near final table ?? I think what u see is the better players go crazy near final table if they find themselves with short stacks.

[N I V V Y]

And what you see in the posts on here Sir, is anybody's guess.