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4 -Bet Bluff 30 Day Challenge Day 2 (Spoiler Alert)

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  • 4 -Bet Bluff 30 Day Challenge Day 2 (Spoiler Alert)

    $2/5 cash game. You are UTG+1 with $550 and you are holding Ad5d.

    You just raised to $15 with Ad5d from UTG+1. You have $535 remaining. A loose aggressive player on the Button raises to $45. What do you do?

    I knew the right answer was going to be raise to $145 but I never do that in cash. I also don't play $2/5.
    I will rarely do it in a tournament but it is in my game.

    My questions are:
    Who on here is using that play in either cash or tournament?
    How effective has it been and which games ie stakes and or tournaments online/live and buy in amount?
    What % of folds would be a good indication we are choosing the right spots?

    I should have looked at my HUD before I posted this. I have actually 4-bet bluffed 1x in .50NL full ring(9) with A2s from MP vs a Co 3-bet.
    That one didn't go well but reviewing my hand I can see my mistakes.

    It might get expensive learning how to do this. I hate to fold once I put a substantial amount of chips in the pot but I am getting better of letting go
    of my bluffing range when I'm supposed too
    Last edited by kkep; 01-14-2020, 04:57 PM.

  • #2
    I posted something about this on the other 30 day challenge thread, I do work in some 4-bet bluffs but probably not a not (but maybe enough?) playing 20NL and 10NL online, 1/2 live. Both as the raiser when an obviously LAG/Aggro Maniac Villain 3-bets me, usually when they are in LP. Also a little bit out of the blinds when splashy LP opponents open, 3-bet. The thing is at the lower stakes villains are 3-betting to infrequently and a nice chunk of the player pool is only 3-betting for value so it doesn't make sense to 4-bet bluff


    • #3
      me think terrible idea.. but could be wrong


      • #4
        I think I need to add it to my game against the right players.


        • #5
          Quite often to be honest. But I only use the 4 combos of A5s.

          There just isn't enough 3-bet bluffing to incorporate a wider 4-bet bluffing range at my stakes. But to 4-bet only for value would still be picked up by the better players.


          • kkep
            kkep commented
            Editing a comment
            Is it possible to look on your HUD to see what % you got folds?

        • #6
          I think its more important to have a robust 4-betting range when playing online than live just because there's nowhere to hide from the HUD stats. Plus, the frequency of 3-bet bluffs increase online as well. If you don't have a 4-bet bluffing range, then you are going to be severely constrained as to what hands you can open in the first place. No, it isn't easy to pull the trigger with hands like A5s or K5s but it does help to have them in the arsenal when playing people who are fairly competent. In tournaments my 4-betting ranges are much tighter than in cash. That may be a weakness of mine.


          • #7
            I don't do a lot of 4-betting at all bc I mistakenly believed I was getting a lot of folds and I want to play pots with QQ+ AK. Which actually is exactly why we should be 4-betting bluffing, at least sometimes.
            However what I found was a lot of the loose players aren't folding anyway.

            I've found 16 occurrences that I opened the hand and 4-bet pre-flop 14 of which were called.

            Players at my stakes don't fold. I was called in.

            $1/2 called by 89s, T9s, bluffed A2s into AKo, JJ
            $1 AKs
            $.50 AKo, AQo, Fold, KK, JJ
            $.50 6 MAX AKo, QJo
            $.10 6 Max KQo, KQs
            $.05 6 Max A9s, fold (bluffed w/ KQo)

            I got 1 of 2 bluffs through losing 71BB
            Last edited by kkep; 01-14-2020, 05:28 PM.


            • #8
              I searched for all wheel Aces and found 8 hands with a win rate of 5BB/hand.


              • kkep
                kkep commented
                Editing a comment
                How many were called by hands we might expect to see folds with?
                Last edited by kkep; 01-15-2020, 03:54 AM.

              • MOUSE85
                MOUSE85 commented
                Editing a comment
                1. Ah4h Button vs SB 6 handed, Called by Kh3h, he hit a straight with the 3.
                2. Ac4c Button 3-handed vs SB, Called by KhTd, I hit 2 pair.
                3. Ac4c MP vs SB, Called by KdJd that hit a straight.
                4. Ac3c UTG+1 vs Cutoff, Called by Ah2d we both hit a straight.
                5. Ac4c SB vs BB heads up. Called by Kc7c I have Ace high
                6. Ac4c SB vs BB heads up. Called by Ah5h and I hit a four
                7. Ad4d SB vs BB 5 handed. Called by Kh5c I have Ace high
                8. Ah3h SB vs BB heads up. Called by KdTh he hit a Ten.

              • kkep
                kkep commented
                Editing a comment
                MOUSE85 what stakes are those hands? Nobody folds anything in your games or against you anyway

            • #9
              I have 4bet bluff with A4ss and A5ss in live cash games at $1/2, $2/5 and $5/5, though it's not often... probably three to five times in the past year. From reading this forum and others, I think my local games have a higher frequency of 3betting at these low stakes than a lot of places, which means 4bets do happen.

              Each time I used a 4bet bluff was very much player specific and almost always in the same configuration as in the quiz or similarly EP v LP, though I can think of at least one time where I cold 4bet as a bluff. It will not work against your typical rec player at these stakes. I can remember having a good reg fold JJ face up pre, but that's the only hand that stands out.

              In tournaments, I've done it a couple of times in the past year that I can remember. One time sticks out because I 4bet jammed someone that ended up calling off with AQ and I flopped the wheel. Other than that, I think the bluff has gotten folds each time. Besides the jam, I think the other instances were done while playing as a big stack at the table where I sensed weakness from a player that I thought would have just jammed on their 3bet with a real premium hand.

              I have also used KT and KJ a few times between cash and tournaments.

              I can't give exact numbers for how often I used these plays, but I played about 300 hours of cash last year, and 500 hours of live MTT, and if I had to guess I 4bet bluffed less than 10 times total.