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Difference between Cash Game Masterclass SB range and 6-Max GTO SB Range?

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  • Difference between Cash Game Masterclass SB range and 6-Max GTO SB Range?

    After identifying that the SB was by far my worst position I set about working very hard to change that. Part of my studying was painstakingly memorising the following range:

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    The results have been really good!

    This is how I play against opponents who I know nothing about, or those that turn out to be at least fairly capable.

    Once I identify weaknesses in their BB v SB play then I will adapt and start targeting these weaknesses, moving away from the range above.


    Now the bit I'm confused about. In the Cash Game Masterclass JonathanLittle recommends the following range:

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    This is clearly very different.

    Is this recommended simply because it's more straightforward and easier to implement? Or does it actually function better in the real world against real opponents?

  • #2
    I'm wondering the same - the charts for 100BB and 6-max GTO is all somewhat different. The main difference I can spot is a generally higher RFI% on the 100BB charts. I have mainly been using these charts and then consulting the 6-max GTO chart for alternative lines. For example BTN vs CO has JJ as a reraise in the 6-max GTO charts but it is a call in the 100BB charts.
    I think adjusting from the "core" of the charts to the different players is the way to go so which one you choose to memorize might not be so important?

    Comment


    • #3
      Pretty sure it's just a matter of implementation. The first chart is closer to GTO, the second is more implementable. Remember that the true GTO chart is going to be even more complex than that first chart, with us taking certain actions with certain holdings only a percent of the time.

      Comment


      • #4
        LondonImp you have committed the first range to memory? Might I ask how you did so? Flashcards? Snapshove? I would like to do the same for other ranges and don't know the best method for doing it.

        Comment


        • Dilly
          Dilly commented
          Editing a comment
          Working on this myself right now, I pick a random range say B v UTG, use the range analyzer to construct how I think my range should be composed, then open another range analyzer tab and construct the range referencing the ranges from the Cash Game Masterclass (I have them saved in PokerCruncher.) Then I do the same thing with another random range, keeping open my "reference" range analyzer for the first range I did. After doing the second, I redo the first one, and then the second one, then add a third and so on...I apologize that was not a very articulate explanation lol.

          Also remember the goal isn't to necessarily commit the exact ranges to memory, we're going to be using them as a basis and adjusting based on opponent. I would run through exercises like this attempting to get the exact "correct" range, but taking the time while doing it to really think more about the frequencies within the range and what kinds of combos we use in each range. For example realizing that because we can call very wide from BB against a B open assuming opponent is competent or loose, we can be 3-betting many hands for value and our 3-bet bluffs will be relatively junky.

        • Maniac1130
          Maniac1130 commented
          Editing a comment
          I like your idea of using the range analyzer to construct what you think the range should be first and then the actual range. I will be incorporating that method as well.

      • #5
        Maniac1130

        I broke it down into sections. First I memorised the limping range and then the raising range. Within the limping range first I memorised limp/fold, then limp/call, and then limp/raise. And then did the same for the raising range.

        To start off with I would open the Pokercoaching range analyser and try and recreate the sections one at a time, and then compare it to the actual chart.

        After a while I could easily "draw" the complete range in the analyser but it was still difficult to actually pick a single combo out in my mind because it was more the 'shapes' in the range that I had learned.

        So I got a pack of cards out and dealt myself hand after hand and tried to remember which category they fell into. I'd make a note of how many I could get right in a row before making a mistake, and then try and beat my high-score. The reward for 50 right in a row was a beer so I had something tangible to work towards!


        As a side note, this has actually really helped me to learn other ranges as I can visualise entire ranges in my head now just from hearing them read aloud. This was something I used to really struggle with.

        Bit of a read I know, but hopefully it helps.

        Comment


        • #6
          LondonImp That's perfect, that you so much! Obviously what works for one may not work for another, but just having a general idea of where to start and how to do it is 1000x better than not knowing anything at all. I will definitely try the card deck thing, I like that idea and it's something I think I could do.

          Comment


          • #7
            My understanding is the difference between the GTO charts and the 100bb charts is that the 100bb charts is something you can use when you play against non-GTO opponents. If they don't play well, you can play more hands, call more raises, etc. The GTO charts assume your opponents are much tougher and will be more aggressive. So you don't call raises as much because you will get squeeze 3bet a lot. You play *way* tighter with the GTO charts because against tougher opponents you have to. And with the hands you play, you will play them more aggressively.

            What I have found for myself is if I'm playing 6-max online, the GTO charts will be better. This is because in online games the rake is way higher for low stakes than low stakes live poker. The rake forces you to play much tighter. On top of that the opponents are way better. Even if your opponents aren't playing GTO in online 6-max they play way better than live opponents. So when you combine the rake + their skill level, it's a much tougher game. In my experience, my results have dramatically improved in 6-max online once I started using the GTO charts for online play.

            Of all the positions to study, I would worry least about when it's folded to you in the SB. That's going to happen less than every other position. So focus on RFI from the other positions and focus on your calling range from the BB and tighten up your BB calling range dramatically. Fix your frequencies in the positions that happen the most first.

            The folded to you in SB play is super complicated and I think a good starting point if you plan to use it in live play is to try to simplify it some. Understand the concepts so you can make up something on the fly. The most important thing is you don't play the junky hands. And you need to limp some % of the time and and raise some % of the time. And you need the limping range to have some strong hands to protect your limping range.

            These charts are an attempt to be "implementable" which means there are no mixed frequencies. For example true GTO charts might say to raise AA 40% of the time and limp 60% of the time. My point is if you were really trying to play GTO, you would play AA differently each time you got dealt it. So don't worry so much about memorizing the charts as much as understanding the concepts.
            * Which hands are too junky to play
            * Which hands should you fold to a raise
            * What types of hands will you call vs a raise

            If you understand those concepts, you should be fine in the folded to SB scenario.

            Comment


            • #8
              thereitis


              Thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough answer.

              Your point about the high rake makes a lot of sense and isn't one I'd considered enough.

              For someone just starting out with ranges your recommendation of beginning with RFI ranges for the more common positions is correct. I'm perfectly happy with the other positions, I just wanted to do a deep-dive, so to speak, into the SB strategy because it was by far my worst position. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a lot of people's worst position to be honest, it's never easy to play.

              I'm going to stick to the "GTO" charts.

              Comment


              • #9
                I also caught onto this when looking through the cash game learning path. I always thought the default 9 handed charts were for MTT because,

                "The charts assume 100 big blind effective stacks with an ante in play."

                In what cash games is there ever an ante? This would partially explain the higher RFI because the 6max charts do not account for ante.

                The 6max charts are specifically called "online 6max GTO" whereas the other is just "pre-flop charts". Online being more difficult would also account for tighter ranges.

                This large difference becomes very apparent in this months homework assignment where I found most are using the standard pre-flop range. Maybe we can get some clarification from JL during the webinar next week.

                Comment


                • #10
                  I made a Quizlet to help remember the 40 BB RFI Small Blind range. When I get $36 in donations I can upgrade to add my own charts and pictures.https://quizlet.com/483266801/40-bb-...range-diagram/
                  Last edited by MOUSE85; 02-09-2020, 10:40 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Is quizlet a word even?

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