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Mistake or cooler? 3-way OOP with TPTK

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  • LondonImp
    commented on 's reply
    My regular opponents are bad players at low stakes. I think it would be silly not to use such an applicable theorem.

  • Dilly
    commented on 's reply
    I agree the vast majority of low stakes players play this way, but against these opponents it's an easy game, you call when you're getting the right odds to draw against their premium made, doesn't really bear discussion.

    But any player only raising TPTK or better, is not competent, and there are some players at low stakes who are competent. There's also players at low stakes who are raising TP without TK, and raising junky pairs because they don't know what else to do with them.

    Think about your own play, you're check raising draws correct? It just seems silly to have a theorem that only applies to bad players at low stakes.

  • LondonImp
    commented on 's reply
    @radubalaj
    Couldn't have put it better myself.

  • radubalaj
    commented on 's reply
    Dilly - what stakes are you playing? And what does a competent opponent look like to you? A competent player at the low stakes will be extremely unbalanced to begin with given how population plays. There's no point in raising turn when population do not fold pairs, you have very little fold equity with your draws.

    Go to your database, filter all hands you were raised turn and went to showdown and see how many times it was a draw and how many times it was 2 pairs+.
    I don't have access to mine at the moment, maybe I can check tonight. As far as I remember, only once I was against a gutshot. The rest of the times I was against the nuts.
    The only chance your opponent has something less than the nuts is when the overvalue overpair or top pair, but they usually raise that on the flop, not on the turn.

  • Dilly
    commented on 's reply
    I've never heard of the Baluga theorem but I have some issues with this article on it - http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/theorems/baluga/

    We definitely need to re-evaluate the strength of single pair hands in the face of a turn raise but "would our opponent ever be raising this turn with anything less than top pair-- The simple answer is no," is incorrect. A competent opponent is definitely going to be raising some turns with draws after calling flop. It's correct that our hand's strength is changed to a marginal bluff catcher, as we're against made hands that crush us and draws with equity that will also bluff the river some times. But to say it's usually a fold is probably wrong, we need to be considering MDF against competent opponents, and when we don't have enough 2P hands that become bluff catchers, we're definitely calling turn raise and sometimes river bets with TPTK.

  • radubalaj
    commented on 's reply
    I think Baluga theorem is more powerful than we can ever imagine

    I remember having 2 pair and getting raised in a similar spot twice. I told myself he can't have exactly that one combo. I was wrong 2 out of 2

    Here, the only hand that makes sense to raise is a set that did not raise the flop or trips made on the turn. From my limited experience, what ppl raise the flop with is top pair, medium pair (probably looking for a fold?) and overpair and sometimes a draw. But they don't raise draws that often on the turn after you bet twice.

  • LondonImp
    commented on 's reply
    Haha yes I did, glad you remembered!

    It was a tricky turn spot for sure. In the end I figured that I probably had the right implied odds to be able to call with either a 4, J, or heart, giving me a strong enough hand to stack off on the river.

    Clearly that was a mistake, but can you realistically put an opponent on just a single combo? J on the board and J in my hand so just 1 JJ combo left.

  • thereitis
    replied
    This is a super weird hand all around. But here are some thoughts. I'm just trying to guess at how I would have played it in game.
    * I typically don't like flatting 3bets, especially from small blind, but given the price you're getting I would probably consider flatting. AJs can play fine multiway out of position. ATo, KQo are much harder to play and I'd raise or fold those hands.
    * On the flop, that tiny cbet is very strange. But I would typically just call it. Given the preflop action, I don't know if the guy is cbetting super small to induce a raise or to get a cheap free card. But I don't mind giving free cards in this spot and I certainly want to avoid getting raised. My goal is to get a cheap showdown with my hand right now.
    * On the turn I am checking. I have a pretty strong hand and a strong draw. I'm basically ever folding but I'm not trying to build the pot. So that leaves me with one choice. To check and call. You can worry less about protecting your hand because there's only 1 card left to come and all hearts are good for you so there's less cards you are worried about.
    * As played I'm never folding on the river. But it's possible you change how you play flop and turn and you lose less by river.

    As a general rule when I'm out of position against 2 players who have shown lots of preflop aggression, I'm going to play my hands more passively unless there's a reason I need to play them aggressively. Reasons to play aggressively could be: 1) board is draw heavy... Jh Th 4d. 2) I have 0 showdown value but lots of equity.... Board is Jd 4h 7h and I have 5h 6h.

    Leave a comment:


  • radubalaj
    replied
    Didn't you tell me about that Baluga theorem?

    He raises the turn small and bets river so small that it's pretty tough to fold here.

    Leave a comment:


  • LondonImp
    replied
    I considered a 4bet but wasn't sure I'd have any fold equity. If I was to take the standard 4bet size of 2.3x (or even a bit higher due to being OOP) it would still be relatively small due to the min 3bet that happened. I could've gone higher still but then I'd most likely be playing a bloated pot, OOP, possibly multiway. That's before we even get to the consideration that the LJ might simply 5bet me off my hand anyway.

    Maybe this should therefore have actually been a fold... What do you think?

    Leave a comment:


  • AJH914
    replied
    Did you consider four betting preflop? Flatting three bets in the small blind is generally a losing proposition. Granted jacks may not fold and you could end up with the same result, but still the theory is correct. The small three bet from the CO is rarely for strong value and the LJ will never fold after you call.

    Leave a comment:


  • LondonImp
    started a topic Mistake or cooler? 3-way OOP with TPTK

    Mistake or cooler? 3-way OOP with TPTK

    This hand feels really ugly. Not happy with my play but not sure what to do different.

    Feels like a mistake on at least 2 streets from me here.

    https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/124tDf2Uu

    LJ: VPiP: 36 PFR: 18 3Bet: 9 Hands: 34
    CO: VPIP: 33 PFR: 8 3Bet: 0 Hands: 14

    What would you guys and girls have done in my shoes?
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