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Mistake or cooler? 3-way OOP with TPTK

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  • Mistake or cooler? 3-way OOP with TPTK

    This hand feels really ugly. Not happy with my play but not sure what to do different.

    Feels like a mistake on at least 2 streets from me here.

    LJ: VPiP: 36 PFR: 18 3Bet: 9 Hands: 34
    CO: VPIP: 33 PFR: 8 3Bet: 0 Hands: 14

    What would you guys and girls have done in my shoes?

  • #2
    Did you consider four betting preflop? Flatting three bets in the small blind is generally a losing proposition. Granted jacks may not fold and you could end up with the same result, but still the theory is correct. The small three bet from the CO is rarely for strong value and the LJ will never fold after you call.


    • #3
      I considered a 4bet but wasn't sure I'd have any fold equity. If I was to take the standard 4bet size of 2.3x (or even a bit higher due to being OOP) it would still be relatively small due to the min 3bet that happened. I could've gone higher still but then I'd most likely be playing a bloated pot, OOP, possibly multiway. That's before we even get to the consideration that the LJ might simply 5bet me off my hand anyway.

      Maybe this should therefore have actually been a fold... What do you think?


      • #4
        Didn't you tell me about that Baluga theorem?

        He raises the turn small and bets river so small that it's pretty tough to fold here.


        • LondonImp
          LondonImp commented
          Editing a comment
          Couldn't have put it better myself.

        • Dilly
          Dilly commented
          Editing a comment
          I agree the vast majority of low stakes players play this way, but against these opponents it's an easy game, you call when you're getting the right odds to draw against their premium made, doesn't really bear discussion.

          But any player only raising TPTK or better, is not competent, and there are some players at low stakes who are competent. There's also players at low stakes who are raising TP without TK, and raising junky pairs because they don't know what else to do with them.

          Think about your own play, you're check raising draws correct? It just seems silly to have a theorem that only applies to bad players at low stakes.

        • LondonImp
          LondonImp commented
          Editing a comment
          My regular opponents are bad players at low stakes. I think it would be silly not to use such an applicable theorem.

      • #5
        This is a super weird hand all around. But here are some thoughts. I'm just trying to guess at how I would have played it in game.
        * I typically don't like flatting 3bets, especially from small blind, but given the price you're getting I would probably consider flatting. AJs can play fine multiway out of position. ATo, KQo are much harder to play and I'd raise or fold those hands.
        * On the flop, that tiny cbet is very strange. But I would typically just call it. Given the preflop action, I don't know if the guy is cbetting super small to induce a raise or to get a cheap free card. But I don't mind giving free cards in this spot and I certainly want to avoid getting raised. My goal is to get a cheap showdown with my hand right now.
        * On the turn I am checking. I have a pretty strong hand and a strong draw. I'm basically ever folding but I'm not trying to build the pot. So that leaves me with one choice. To check and call. You can worry less about protecting your hand because there's only 1 card left to come and all hearts are good for you so there's less cards you are worried about.
        * As played I'm never folding on the river. But it's possible you change how you play flop and turn and you lose less by river.

        As a general rule when I'm out of position against 2 players who have shown lots of preflop aggression, I'm going to play my hands more passively unless there's a reason I need to play them aggressively. Reasons to play aggressively could be: 1) board is draw heavy... Jh Th 4d. 2) I have 0 showdown value but lots of equity.... Board is Jd 4h 7h and I have 5h 6h.