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Can we ever fold the King high flush on the flop?

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  • Can we ever fold the King high flush on the flop?

    PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    CO: 100 BB
    BTN: 149 BB VPiP: 46 PFR: 23 3Bet: 9 AF: 7 (28 hands)
    SB: 110.8 BB
    BB: 366.1 BB VPiP: 36 PFR: 32 3Bet: 20 AF: infinite (28 hands)
    UTG: 122.3 BB
    Hero (MP): 107 BB

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K:heart: T:heart:

    fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, fold, BTN calls 2.5 BB, fold, BB calls 1.5 BB

    Flop: (8 BB, 3 players) 7:heart: 9:heart: 3:heart:
    BB checks, Hero bets 4.4 BB, BTN raises to 13.6 BB, BB calls 13.6 BB, Hero raises to 31 BB, BTN calls 17.4 BB, BB raises to 363.6 BB and is all-in, Hero ??

  • #2
    IDK But I'm not folding

    Comment


    • #3
      His af is infinite. Is he a whale?

      Comment


      • LondonImp
        LondonImp commented
        Editing a comment
        As AJH914 alludes to in his reply below, it's just not a big enough sample size of hands to be able to draw meaningful conclusions.

        Also, the problem with the AF stat is that it does not take into account folds (as far as I know). Simply it's an indicator of how many times the villain bets/raises as opposes to calls. If he folds it is unchanged. Therefore a very tight player who only raises his premium hands and folds everything else on the flop could have a very high AF but is certainly not a whale.

    • #4
      You likely don’t enough hands on these guys to answer this, but would either player make this move with the naked ace of hearts? Guys love playing random aces especially from the blinds. There are certainly plenty of combos of Ah10s etc that an aggressive villain could play this way. It’s hard to get to a VPIP of 36 without some junky aces in there. If you think they could make this move it further pushes towards a call.

      Comment


      • #5
        Seems more likely to me villain is raising with an actual hand vs a draw. I don't feel like you're going to come across lots of villains playing low stakes that are spewing off 200BB on the flop multiway with just a flush draw when one of the opponents could easily have a flush and the other could easily have a hand they're not folding. If it was heads up, if it was less deep stacked, I could see it more.

        But I think with the multiway dynamic, I can see villains playing Q high flushes this way to price out the flush draws, 2 pair hands, straight draws, etc.

        I would tend to call but expect to be up against the nuts a decent %of the time.

        Comment


        • #6
          If you're going to re-raise I don't think you can ever fold here. I think at 10NL you could see enough opponents play for stacks here with lesser flushes and sets enough that you get it all in only feeling a little bad about it....I don't know if this is the right thought process but I'm thinking if we call here against villains that are nut heavy/all nuts, given available info it could be a small mistake, if you fold to an opponent who is ever doing this with a weaker flush or Ah or a set, its a hugeeeee mistake.

          Comment


          • #7
            What Dilly said. How do we feel about just flatting the flop? I don’t mind the raise but I’m curious what the group thinks.

            Comment


            • #8
              He can have all sorts of worse flushes and sets, dont fold here , also with the nut flush wouldnt even the biggest Fish Kind of slow playing 1 or 2 streets ,?

              When you post this i guess you got coolered anyway ?

              Comment


              • LondonImp
                LondonImp commented
                Editing a comment
                Haha I'm actively trying to avoid only analysing the hands where I lose. Easier said than done though right? They're the ones that you remember...

            • #9
              Originally posted by RealJPB View Post
              How do we feel about just flatting the flop?
              Hmm... Not a huge fan to be honest. I think that could lead to very difficult decisions on further streets and I try to keep my decisions as easy as possible.

              Say I flat and a 2h hits the turn. That would be a horrible situation to have to manage.

              Comment


              • kkep
                kkep commented
                Editing a comment
                I flat in those spots too but I’m probably not aggressive enough. It is a crappy spot when the turn checks through but not as bad as having to fold or call off idk 300BB or whatever on the flop.

            • #10
              I suppose something else we need to consider is whether or not the Th in our hand is a good or a bad thing.

              It blocks T8 which is a potential drawing hand we would like the opponent to have in his range. Or do you think the fact that this is a monotone board and somewhat multiway negates this?

              It specifically blocks Th8h which the villain is very likely to play this way with which isn't good. On the other hand it removes half of their outs if they are playing the 8h6h for what they believe is an OESFD which is a positive.

              Maybe it doesn't matter at all...

              I'd be interested to hear your opinions.

              Comment

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