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Size matters

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  • Size matters

    Live 1/2 at Caesars Palace. The game is generally loose and passive with a lot of limp/calling pre and a lot of check/calling post.

    H QdQc S 300 P UTG+1

    I open to 8, LJ, CO, BTN, and BB call
    Pot 41
    Flop KdQh3s. BB checks

    What size bet do you make? Why do you choose that size?

  • #2
    I'm learning 1/2 pot is usually correct in multi-way pots bc the pot is already inflated and it won't take much to get stacks in.

    That said a couple Pros on here don't like 1/2 pot sizing. So you could probably go 1//2 pot to 3/4 pot and still get some action on that flop.
    You shouldn't be running into a set of kings so you're purely value betting and charging draws.


    • #3
      This range is better for you as the preflop raiser and you have a clear nut advantage.

      Having said that, versus 4 opponents the chances are that at least 1 of them has picked up a good piece of this.

      Generally multiway you want to be betting a bit smaller than you would in a heads up pot, but here I think you could make a slightly exploitative bet size of around 3/4 pot.


      • Paul Khoo
        Paul Khoo commented
        Editing a comment
        @londonlimp i just have doubt in muti way pot we should bet smaller? i really dont know , in my mind i think we should bet bigger some time muti way pot sometime think should bet smaller , both i have good reason. so i am contradicting myself , so i wanted to hear your reason why bet smaller in muti way pot. generally in muti way pot someone tend to have something the more player inside the chance of them having something to call you is high , so when we bet for value we should bet bigger, i also have reason for betting smaller , but wish to hear your reasonng . i will say in muti way pot i think we should tighten our betting range

    • #4
      Thanks to you both. I wanted to verify that my thought process here wasn’t too far off. In game, my first thought was bet small because it’s multi-way but that flop hits the calling range of these players pretty hard. A couple of them would probably go to the felt with KJ or KT, and I could get two streets of value from the many gutshots and JT so I decided to take a line that would setup playing for stacks by the river.

      I bet 30 and they all folded. I thought this might be too big but sounds like it was a good size.


      • #5
        Yeah 30 sounds right to me.

        Something else I like about this bet is that when villain is sitting there with a draw it looks like they are getting the right odds to continue.

        If villain has JT then they have 8 outs to the nuts so roughly 32%.

        Facing a bet of 30 into a pot of 41 means they only need 30% to call.

        Now provided you barrel again on the turn (which of course I hope you will do) they've actually only been given 1 shot to make their draw and so really only had 16% and made a mistake in calling.

        It's probably best to take this post with a pinch of salt by the way. Although it seems to make a lot of sense to me it's not something I've actually discussed with anyone before so the theory might in fact be wrong. Open to correction


        • #6
          I think if they all are very call heavy I would make it 45 maybe 47. A slight overbet.

          Please note, if you're doing this you need to do it with some bluffs too.

          Let's say 1 caller, and you have a turn of 5d now the pot is 130 ish I'd shove for value. But I'd be doing this with bluffs too.


          • #7
            I think you can go big here on the flop. I think a lot of your decisions will be player dependent though. So if you think you're against players that will stack off with Kx, then just head straight to value-town and don't look back. If you think you're against players that are on the tighter side postflop, then a smaller sizing might be best. I find it much more useful to play exploitative in live cash games than playing GTO. I think 30 is a great size. No Kx is ever folding and those are your clearest value targets. If you wanted to extract some value from the smaller PPs and some Qx, maybe go for something like 20-24.


            • #8
              I think the group is right that you can go big here but I think I'd exploitatively go smaller. I want to do everything to keep these loose passive players in the pot. I'd bet $15 and let them continue way wider drawing almost dead.


              • #9
                Opponents stack sizes should definitely be considered here. I think the standard move is large as we have a huge range and nut advantage, maybe 60%-80% pot. Overbets could be considered if jamtay mentioned if we're splitting our c-betting range into overbets with nuts and some draws as bluffs, and more standard <pot bets with strong but not nut hands and some draws as bluffs.

                But assuming one or some of opponents are short stacked, which is likely the case at 1/2, a small bet can induce a shove from a small stacked opponent who made a good top pair, it invites opponents to call lightly, which might bring others along for the ride. Yes we get outdrawn doing this sometimes, but second set on this board is a hand that should be comfortably getting it in against all 4 villains if possible.


                • Delta9
                  Delta9 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Effective stacks were 100-150 bb , unusual at 1/2.

                • Dilly
                  Dilly commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Delta9 great table to have the nuts on haha

              • #10
                You smashed the flop considering there was no 3bet, so you should just be looking to walk this to river. I'm on the bet small side here. Is it JL that says "bet small, bet often?"

                At a table described as loose passive, I don't expect many V's to call a big bet on this board unless they happen to catch two pair or set of 3s. Given how much this flop hits your open range, no front door flush draw, and a lot of straight draws being gutters, the 3/4 pot or larger bet is just going to chase everything else out. And, you block the most likely two pair hand, so I think you should be targeting the single pairs and straight draws with a bet of 1/3-1/2 pot. If you get a call or two early, you may even keep in A high from LP or BB.


                • #11
                  i bet 30 to built the pot , more might look too scary for villians , in any case you have to bet , the gto programs might tell you you should cbet smaller but at a 1/2 live I would go for bigger value and you will get almost the same calls whether you bet 12 or 30 in my mind

                  i dont think a K folds to a 30 cbet here this deep


                  • #12
                    i have analyzed your spot with Snowie

                    Snowie prefers betting 25% this multiway and to bet with 100% of your betting range (picture1), note checking has almost the same EV as you are oop to 2

                    if snowie had only the bet possibility of 50% potsize snowie would prefer checking over betting (picture 2) and snowie says 50% potsize is a suboptimal bet size and that snowie prefers a 25% potsize

                    so this is the GTO solution

                    in a 1/2 game playing gto is not the highest EV play , you wont lose money playing gto but you will win more money playing exploitatively

                    seeing this at least you should not bet bigger than 30 as you do not want to deviate from GTO too drastically