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  • Poker Order Of Operations

    Poker friends -

    I've been a PC member for about a month and I'm making my first post. I'm continuing to learn so ignore any stupidity that comes from this direction.

    I've heard Alex Fitzgerald refer to an "order of operations" for making postflop decisions during his hand quizzes but he doesn't elaborate on it (at least not through quiz 250ish). Like many learning players there is a ton of information to process at the table in real time and I could certainly use more structure to my thought process. Can anyone elaborate on Alex's method or provide some insight of their own?

    Thanks.

  • #2
    Welcome AJH914.

    Their certainly is a lot of information, and approaching it in a structured, logical way is they best way to make sense of it.

    Are you familiar with the concept of breaking down your post-flop ranges into the following four categories?:

    - Premium made
    - Marginal made
    - Draws
    - Junk

    This is an approach that allows us to be balanced in our play and make steps on the way to becoming un-exploitable. When we bet our premium made hands and draws, and then check our marginal made and junk we become tough to play against.

    There's no point me going into more detail here as you'll either know this approach already, or you won't know it but would be far betting learning from the coaches on this site than myself!

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    • #3
      a few order of operations i have learned from alex's videos

      preflop

      if i bet what is the chance of getting 3bet from the players to my left?

      if i 3bet what is the chance of getting 4bet from the players to my left?

      if i open this who will i get heads up?

      who is in the blinds are they tight or loose?

      given that the blinds call a lot do i need to make it 3.5xbb instead of 2x or 2.5x because they will call preflop and check fold on the flop?

      if i am in the hijack or lowjack position can i bet 3.5bb or 4bb so the people to my left will fold and i will be the effective button and in last position postflop - i.e. can i buy the button with a bigger than normal raise preflop?


      postflop

      what is the range of my opponents?

      how many combinations of hands does my opponent have?

      how can i fold A high hands?

      do i want to get 2 or 3 streets of value - if only 2 do i check the flop or the turn?

      if the opponent has a tight capped range can i get the stacks in by the river - if so what do i need to bet on the flop and turn?


      I am about 60% sure this is what he means by order of operations i could be wrong though


      hopefully someone else will add to this
      Last edited by halem111; 12-03-2019, 05:57 AM.

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      • #4
        LondonImp thanks. I’m familiar with this method from JL and I’m slowly getting better at it from the homework. Alex’s method sounds more advanced but maybe I should simply be sticking with this for now. If I get this down and the bet sizing right that should get me a long way.

        halem111 good info. Not sure I’m ready to get through all this in real time but seeing it written down certainly helps. I really like his PBSH acronym and look forward to keening his style further.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by AJH914 View Post
          Alex’s method sounds more advanced but maybe I should simply be sticking with this for now. If I get this down and the bet sizing right that should get me a long way..
          Yeah that seems like a good approach. The 'four categories' is a fairly basic approach but lays very good foundations for you to then move on to understanding and building on more advanced concepts.

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          • #6
            I have watched a good bit of Alex's webinars/packages.

            Preflop he looks for bigger pots, in position, superior hands, heads up. Basically you want to play heads up with better hands against someone who has a wide range and will fold their overcards on the flop. If you get these four to happen, you are most often in a profitable situation.

            Postflop he stresses what is the most important thought here based on your hand and the board. Because flops can have so many variables, there is a lot of detail for his postflop thoughts, so you probably should get one of his packages (like master the flop or think like a poker player) to really understand. The most basic thought and almost always the first thought is am I betting for value or as a bluff. If value, what worse hands call. If a bluff, what better hands fold. If neither make sense, check. He also stresses how often bets need to work to be profitable based on bet size. For example, villain has 70% junk and a bet of pot needs to work 50% of the time so you have a very profitable bet.

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            • #7
              The tough part of this is it isn't like PEMDAS where there is an indisputable order of operations, depending on circumstances different factors are more important and should carry more weight in your decision

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              • #8
                Originally posted by AJH914 View Post
                LondonImp thanks. I’m familiar with this method from JL and I’m slowly getting better at it from the homework. Alex’s method sounds more advanced but maybe I should simply be sticking with this for now. If I get this down and the bet sizing right that should get me a long way.
                One isnt necessarily more advanced than the other. They're just different. The premium, draw, marginal, junk format used in the PC homework is a simplified GTO strategy used to structure your range so that you can be balanced and hard to exploit. Most of what Alex teaches is exploitative play and mental coaching. You need to understand both GTO and how to exploit your opponents to be a good player.

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                • LondonImp
                  LondonImp commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Really good point.

              • #9
                I agree with MrFuss, one isn't more complicated than the other. I differentiate in that PDMJ format will help you stay balanced and should serve you well at any stake. Alex's strategies are geared toward exploiting small stakes players and that field.

                Because Alex's strategies are exploitative, you have to be more careful in how you implement cause they can create huge losses when applied wrong.

                I would tell you to stick with the basics for Alex (position, bigger pots, superior hands, heads up preflop and why am I betting post flop). Those will help a ton especially when combined with PDMJ categories and can be applied at any stake as well.

                Comment


                • #10
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPr061j3wdc
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuLX3hgisKI
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YuUnEfffgY
                  Try to be consistent. Develop your own system
                  Before cards are dealt. What's the most important question to ask here?
                  Are there any ICM implications?
                  What are the stack sizes? Who is gonna shove?
                  What is my opening range from this position?
                  Who is after me, especially the Big Blind? Who has been 3 betting?
                  Who is on tilt? The mark? (You want the nits to your left, the fish to your right, and the aggro guys across the table from you)
                  Can I steal the blinds?
                  Preflop.
                  What's the most important question to ask here?
                  Look for tells. Everyone who uses a card protector has a tell. Don't give any tells yourself.
                  What's my opening range again? What is his?
                  How big of a raise will I call? How big of a raise will I 3bet? If I call, who will 3bet to my left?
                  Who is unusually quiet? Who is already looking to fold?
                  When action is finished, with what hands did villain(s) get to this point? This range should never expand.
                  Who is betting? Do they have sizing tells?
                  What is my plan on later streets?
                  Flop.
                  What's the most important question to ask here?
                  How did they react when they looked at the flop?
                  What is the texture of the flop? Does it help my range or opponents?
                  What is the nuts on this flop? Do these hands fit in either of our ranges?
                  What's my opening range again? What is his?
                  With what hands did he get here? (Premium, draws, Marginal, junk).
                  When they bet, what are my pot odds? What is my minimum defense frequency? How many outs do I have, what is my equity, and what are the implied odds?
                  Should I bet? How much will make worse hands call and better hands fold?
                  How many combos of his range beat my range? How many don't?
                  REPEAT on Turn.
                  What's the most important question to ask here?
                  River
                  How much value can I extract from his range? I can bluff larger than that, right?
                  It's better to practice this when you are not in the hand.
                  While you don’t want to get overwhelmed there are many questions you can ask throughout a poker hand. Start with the ones you feel are most important, then expand over time. You will find that your decision making becomes much better and more consistent over time once you can articulate why you are doing things, and what range your opponent has.
                  It's a lot like driving a car. At first it is overwhelming, but with practice you are checking the mirrors and using your blinker unconsciously. Then you can add on eating, texting, road head, and flipping people off once you have the basics down. The goal is unconscious competence.
                  https://mainecrimewriters.com/2015/0...us-competence/

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