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  • Vs Maniac

    This hand really bothered me, because I was getting run over by this guy, and I really didn't know where I was at in the hand. Please tell me your thoughts on this hand

    This player was a maniac.

    VPIP:42 %
    PFR:39 %
    3Bet:22 %
    4Bet:10 %
    1K hands
    WSD:45


    Yatahay Network - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    BTN: 126.5 BB
    SB: 180.5 BB
    Hero (BB): 117.5 BB
    UTG: 58 BB
    MP: 237 BB
    CO: 100 BB

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 9:club: 9:heart:

    fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, fold, Hero calls 2 BB

    Flop: (6.5 BB, 2 players) 3:club: 8:spade: 6:heart:
    Hero bets 4.5 BB, BTN raises to 15 BB, Hero calls 10.5 BB

    Turn: (36.5 BB, 2 players) 4:spade:
    Hero checks, BTN bets 22 BB, Hero calls 22 BB

    River: (80.5 BB, 2 players) 2:spade:
    Hero checks, BTN bets 86.5 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 77.5 BB and is all-in

    BTN shows A:spade: A:club: (One Pair, Aces)
    (Pre 81%, Flop 88%, Turn 95%)
    Hero shows 9:club: 9:heart: (One Pair, Nines)
    (Pre 19%, Flop 12%, Turn 5%)
    BTN wins 224 BB

    I led into him because this flop was so good for my range.
    then when I got raised, I didn't know what to do.
    I'm going to run my Flopzilla on this, I don't think there is any reason to run PioSolver as vs a player like this I think it's useless.

    I would be very interested in your thoughts on this hand. thanks
    Last edited by jamtay317; 11-28-2019, 09:24 AM.

  • #2
    here is a rough range for someone like this:
    Click image for larger version

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    the flop:
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    turn:

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    river:
    this is where I think that I can fold looking at Flopzilla, but I think its close.
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    Comment


    • #3
      I don't think I'm ever leading flop in this situation. For one, BN is a maniac so I'm not sure that you actually have a range or nut advantage on this board. Two, you know you're likely to face aggression from this player and if you're unhappy if you get raised... Third, I'm not sure you want to bloat the pot with this exact hand.
      Last edited by RealJPB; 11-28-2019, 10:23 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        I don't hate your flop lead , but I don't like your river call . If vs manaic I would rather check call flop check call turn and check call river. . When you lead flop some one raise u most likely most player dont bluff as much. When he continues bet turn and Jam river. If he really that manic then your river call has no problem. But when you lead flop and he raise flop..Wow this situation don't happen frequent enough. Actually I would preflop 3bet. 99 this hand is not a super good hand to check call all the way after all. If we can raise and deny equity it will be good. And we are OOP I think when we 3bet lower SPR it will lower the advantage of IP player. Of course villain has AA we are bound to lose this hand

        Comment


        • #5
          Vs this type of player I will play a very trappy way let's say I have set or AA I will be likely happily allow him to barrel all the way.

          Comment


          • #6
            I wouldn't have led the flop. If you are thinking about his range he has all of the sets, over pairs to your 9's. He is also going to have 86s.
            That is 41 combos that beat you right off the bat. Then he should have some back door spade draws that he can keep betting on the turn
            that get there on the river. He could have the (3) 75s combo that makes straights too.

            I'm most likely trying to keep the pot small and check calling flop and turn but I think I find a fold on the river if he is blasting it.

            Comment


            • kkep
              kkep commented
              Editing a comment
              It might be the top of your range James but it wouldn't be in mine.

              I suggested checking/call flop. I can't make a range for you but if you make a range and play it was you did I think you might see why leading with it is a mistake. 99 shouldn't end up at the top of your range when we are defending (calling) there with about 45-48% of our range

              Then make a range where 99 is check calling on the flop you''ll find that if you played it more balanced you will end up with some flushes, straights and 2 pair combos, maybe even bottom set sometimes which will likely push 99 out of the top 40% of your range.

              I think 1Peter also mentioned with 99 should be raised pre) that you capped your range. I think that will be evident in your 1st range chart.

              I range most of the hands I post on here and I feel like it's a fantastic exercise.

              IMO it's the only tool we need (or at least the tool we need to master first) until we become more advanced players. It's kinda like Poker for Dummies. If we aren't constructing and playing our ranges correctly then nothing else really matters. But if we are constructing and playing our ranges correctly we can still play well without necessarily understanding ALL of the 2nd and 3rd level poker theories.
              Last edited by kkep; 11-29-2019, 08:30 AM.

            • jamtay317
              jamtay317 commented
              Editing a comment
              I will do this exercise. Thank you.

            • kkep
              kkep commented
              Editing a comment
              I'm interested to learn what you find.

          • #7
            Jamtay, can you see how often he folds to a 3bet, cbets flop, turn, river, and folds to cbet flop and turn? That would help define the strategy better here.

            He opens 39% of hands, so I am 3betting 99 even from the BB. His 4 bet indicates he will raise if 3bet with 10% of his 39% range (so 4bets 99+, AQs, and AKo), therefore we can easily fold to his 4bet. If he calls with the rest of his opening range, we have 65% equity and an uncapped range. Depending on how much he folds, we still have like 62% plus equity. Having his fold to 3bet and fold to cbet would help calculate the ev of 3betting amd provide guidance on what flops to be concerned with.

            Calling with 99, you will face an overcard 80% of the time and will likely call down unhappily, but should probably still call down (depends on cbet stats). That adds to desire to 3bet with 99.

            As played, I am never leading that flop with an overpair. I would lead flop as a bluff with a hand I can't check call but don't want to check fold (42, 52, 74, 95, T7, T9 for gut shots). Whether or not I lead for value depends on cbet stats. With 99, I would check call all the way to showdown with that run out.

            Comment


            • #8
              1Peter510
              Folds to 3Bet preflop 44
              CBets Flop 77%
              CBets Turn 13%
              CBets River 50%

              Folds to Flop CBet 38%
              Folds to Turn CBet 43%
              Flops to River CBet 21%
              Last edited by jamtay317; 11-28-2019, 09:07 PM.

              Comment


              • 1Peter510
                1Peter510 commented
                Editing a comment
                I can figure out ev for when he folds to the 3bet and when he 4bets but the decision tree goes beyond my skill when he calls the 3bet. I know we can cbet any board with no ace and 2 cards 9 or lower, just not sure how often that happens. I'm guessing like 37% of the time. We can cbet all boards, but he hits pretty often if there is an Ace or 2 cards higher than a 9.

                It does seem he gets pretty honest on the turn. Maybe 3betting 99 isn't the best play, but 99 does have 60% equity against his calling range vs a 3bet.

                I think against a maniac like that, I want to push back with 99 rather than call down facing an overcard or 2 and having no idea how strong he is when I have an overpair to the board. I would probably do this 88-JJ and any Ace.

            • #9
              kkep
              I've looked over this hand and here are my findings, I think that my strategy will change because of this hand. I will show what my old strategy was, and show what my new one will be. please critique this and tell me your feelings on both.

              I think that I'm calling preflop with something like this:

              Flop:

              After Getting Raised on the flop:


              once I call I'm just trying to get to showdown.

              I think I will change my strategy to something like this:



              when the flop comes 863r we now have good board coverage allowing us to do many more things.

              when I 3bet preflop here and he 4bets which with AA he will. I think that I can fold 99 here. as I will not be getting the right price to set mine. I think I just get stacked with KK QQ JJ and AK. but thats okay.

              please tell me what your thoughts are on this?

              Comment


              • #10

                I think your pre-flop defending range is way to tight but the second exampe is much better.
                Here is the 6Max GTO Chart


                Comment


                • #11
                  Here is an estimate of what villain's range looks like (opens 39%, then 4bets 10% of that and folds 44% when 3bet):

                  So, I would suggest the following response to his open:

                  My thinking on the 3bet is that we want to pick hands that:
                  1. Are easy to play against his 4bet (easy fold, "easy" call, easy jam)
                  2. Don't do well as a call against a wide range (i.e. 88-JJ where we will face an overcard or two more than 50% of the time and when we don't face an overcard, we still don't know if we are good)
                  3. Block his 4betting range
                  4. Don't block his fold to 3bet range
                  5. Are generally ahead of his calling range.
                  I would probably use the 3bet range any time he opens from any position. I would adjust the calling range based on my position.

                  When I called, I would look at maybe leading with got shots, especially on the lower boards.

                  He cbets 70% of the time on the flop and then get's real honest on the turn. So, I would not raise the flop. I would call with a pretty wide range of made hands and draws looking to see what he does on the turn. If he bets turn, I would then raise with my premium hands figuring he likes his hand and will stack off. I would tend to call with my draws (because he likes his hand and probably stacks off of I raise). I would fold out my weaker made hands probably anything below top pair. If he checked the turn, I would tend to bet most rivers. If he bets flop, turn, and river I am likely folding out some of my worst top pairs, maybe even all of them. That strategy would probably need refinement based on the database though.

                  When he checked the flop, I would tend to bet wide on the turn depending on the card.

                  I think it could be worth looking through your database with this guy and seeing if he has opened hands outside of the range I assigned to him. Then you can adjust the range and your strategy accordingly. Also, I would look at what hands he checks the flop with, to see if he pot controls. Then I would look at cbet flop & turn as well as cbet flop/check turn to figure out better what he does there. This seems like a guy you want to find when he is playing so you can play against him (especially if he plays at higher stakes). He is loose, aggressive, but seems very straightforward on the turn or against a 3bet. Maybe don't abuse him too much though....

                  Comment


                  • kkep
                    kkep commented
                    Editing a comment
                    With all due respect I don't like that pre-flop range at all.

                    We are over 100BB so our bluffs want to be hands that play well post flop, can make the nuts and can get all of the V's chips. Those are the suited connectors. JTs J9s T9s T8s 98s 97s 87s 76s 65S and a few two gappers.

                    Depending on the 4-bet size we can usually call with all or at least some of our Ax suited Broadway, KQs. I'm often going to call (depending on the SPR) with AA KK QQ. I'm not calling with JJ or TT unless I'm still getting 10/1 so you can throw 99 and 88 in that bag too.

                    Also I think a *maniac* is opening much wider that 40% from the button especially when his aggregated VPIF is 42%

                  • 1Peter510
                    1Peter510 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    This is my first time really looking at how to maximally exploit a player, so definitely want discussion.

                    I agree he is opening more than 39% on the BTN, but I am looking to lay out a strategy that can be used any time he opens. So, I wanted to stick with 39% rather than having to define a strategy for each position or define 3 strategies.

                    When he opens 39% and will 4bet very tight and fold about half of his range, I want to make sure I am not blocking his opening/folding range. So I would call with middle suited cards rather than 3bet. As you said, those hands play too well post flop and when we 3bet with them, he is more likely to have a hand that will 4bet or call us. When he 4bets, we obviously have to fold. When he calls, he dominates those hands.

                    From late position and the blinds, I could see 3betting with low suited connectors like 65s, 54s, 64s, 43s, etc. That could be great as they won't flop well and we just shut down when he calls unless we hit something strong. In fact, I really like that and would add those as 3bet bluffs but only from BTN, SB, and maybe CO. From BB, I am just calling getting amazing odds, but maybe should think about 3betting them.

                    I struggled with what to do with JJ & TT to a 4bet. I figured a 4bet likely lays 29%-33% pot odds with JJ having 48% equity and TT having 41% equity. So figured folding was too tight and jamming too strong.

                    I don't know how wide I would go calling a 4bet. You suggested to call with Axs and KQs, I would look at equity against 99+, AQs, and AK. For me those hands are at or around 30% equity and will have 30% pot odds. I included those as 3bets because they block his 4bet range and dominate his calling range. When he 4bets, and you call with those hands you need the implied odds and will not have them.

                    I can see calling with QQ rather than jamming. I would not call with AA and KK. My chips are in the middle there.

                  • kkep
                    kkep commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I like to be aggressive OOP vs players that open to wide and C-bet at a high rate. Otherwise we end up doing a lot of calling pre-flop then folding on the flop. AKA getting run over. Then with my calling hands if I have any BD equity at all I mix in some c/r bluffs on flops.
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