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Optimal 3 bet sizing?

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  • Optimal 3 bet sizing?

    €1.100 live MTT
    day 2 ITM
    final 8 tables

    Loja (20bb) opens 2.3bb
    Hija (85bb) 3bets to 4.8
    CO-BB stacks range between 25bb and 45bb

    1. good 3 bet size?
    2. what could hija's range look like?

  • #2
    I think that's fine with short stacks in play. We shouldn't have very many bluffy hands in our 3-bet range here and can call off a shove with most of it.

    The V's range might look something like this -

    My 3-bet range would look something like this and as you can see it's really not that hard to muck our borderline combos and call it off with
    the top of that range (which is well above the suggested 37%) given your raise size. So maybe we are supposed to much JJ too but I think
    that's just to strong.


    • #3
      I would usually 3B around 5.5BB there, but that sizing seems like it could work in many situations with 20BB effective. I tend to not know how to make the 2.1x work very well in general and find around 2.5x works better with my game. But it seems a viable and probably more precise (chip saving) strategy if you can make it work.

      And yeah, like kkep said, HJ is narrow top heavy polar.


      • #4
        this 3 betsize is a mistake As he gives way too good odds , a normal bet 3x , given effective stacks I raise to 5.5

        side Note if it were a 4 bet on 30 bb - 45 bb I would like the slightly over 2.0 sizing

        if he is a capable it can be a polar range

        against random I would assume he wants me come into the pot urgently, I would Monster range him


        • #5
          When I observed the hand my initial thought was that the 3bet size was bad.
          Then everybody folded (loja after hemming and hawing) And I started to wonder.

          2.5bb to win (2.3+2.3+1+1+0.5 =) 7.1, so if hija gets folds 35% of the time, he breaks even.

          The big downside I think is that loja can/should call a lot (2.5 to win 9.6, so loja only needs 26% equity).
          also cold calling IP or for bb becomes more attractive.

          The upsides are cheap bluff, worse odds for 4 bet shove (which allows hija to include more bluffs), and more action when holding top hands.
          I also think that a lot of players (both as loja or player to act behind) don't know how to respond to this small size. I wouldn't be sure either.

          I think sizing is especially powerfull when there is high ICM pressure. Calling oop becomes less attractive as you will not realise your equity well. Reward for risk (4b all in) needs to be higher.

          I think hija's range can contain more bluffs than 1:1. Obviously depending on how you expect players to respond (loose V's: less bluffs, tight: more bluffs, agressive: polar range, passive: playable/ linear range).
          Lasty I think players behind are just a bit too deep to call with monster often to entice an AI squeeze.

          Maybe hija's range can look like this (assuming loja pushes 99+,AQs+,AKo and we need roughly 40% to call):

          As a shorthanded SNG player, I do not come across these spots, so found this interesting to hear some opinions about it.


          • #6
            It is good to realize that he is not aiming to make people fold because of pot odds but because of ICM. For the big stack it might be profitable 3 betting every single hand until opponents adjust. With ICM when you go all-in, everybody who is not all-in profits. So it is a bit of a chicken race... you put the other guy in a position where he can fold, if he doesn't then both of you lose but the smaller stacks (actually especially middle stacks) lose more. The small stack should be prepared to go all in because unless nothing changes he is the one dropping next. The middle stacks are the most vulnrable to this preassure as they can just fold and increase the payout without taking any risks.


            • #7
              Whenever I play, I try different amounts. I feel like with gambling, there is no optimal amount since too much depends on pure luck. Just see for yourself what works best/