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Difficult spot in SB w/ QQ facing action 10NL

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  • jamtay317
    replied
    here is a fundamentally sound range.

    Click image for larger version

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    Leave a comment:


  • jamtay317
    commented on 's reply
    I do understand the difference between the top 8% of hands and fundamentally sound 8%. I personally play these stakes and from what I've found almost no one is "fundamentally sound", but the doesn't mean that they can't be. please forgive me if I came across agressive there I am under the weather and haven't had much sleep.

  • kkep
    commented on 's reply
    jamtay317 we don't know what his range is for sure so without more information we have to start with what we know is sound and expand out from there. I doubt he does this with middling pairs but for all I know he could be doing this with all of his paired combos.

    I only made that comment because I wasn't sure if you understood the difference between Flopzilla's top 8 percent and a more fundamentally sound top 8 percent.

  • 1Peter510
    commented on 's reply
    jamtay317 I thought your work was very helpful. I greatly appreciate the work. Like you said, it does boil down to definitely fold if we think he is polar, we can call if we think he is linear.

    I think since we don't know what villain is really doing and we can expect to face another bet at least half the time, folding is probably the correct play on the turn.

  • MrFuss
    commented on 's reply
    If I had to choose I would lean towards a polar range for this player with pretty aggressive stats, especially at 10NL. Its such a nasty spot and the board smashes a polar range pretty hard. My QQ felt marginal especially when 160bb deep and and I chose to fold instead of closing my eyes and clicking it off.

  • MrFuss
    commented on 's reply
    jamtay317 I think it's helpful and its just a nasty spot. We don't know what BTN is doing and thats always the hardest aspect of poker, the unknown.

  • jamtay317
    commented on 's reply
    kkep yes, I know that and agree with that. I was asked to run it on 8% of hands and that's what I did. How do we know the V Is using ATo over 66? How do we know he wants to see KJo over 66 or 77? How do we know he isn't very polar here where he is spasing out with 45s? We dont, so when I'm running my hands I try to look at more than just the Standard play. I thought this was helpful, apparently it was wrong.
    Last edited by jamtay317; 11-01-2019, 12:55 PM.

  • MrFuss
    commented on 's reply
    Eddie, if anyone has to explain why "no discussion here .. only passive players patting each other on the back" is a nasty comment then it's simply not worth explaining. kkep lmk when you find the block feature. I didn't see it anywhere.

    CrazyEddie - there are several comments in just this thread where you put people down or say they are beneath you,
    "causing u cry so much"
    "Don't be ridiculous .... You have self esteem problem"
    Your tone is nasty and no one appreciates it.
    Last edited by MrFuss; 11-01-2019, 12:18 PM.

  • kkep
    commented on 's reply
    jamtay317 technically 66 is better than say ATo pre flop but 66 will often have a hard time realizing it's full equity and getting to showdown.
    So for that reason 66 is a poor 3-bet bluff hand (it's not a value bet) and ATo is better. But when faced with a 4-bet they should both be mucked assuming the 4-bettor didn't make an error by raising to small but even then we have to play cautiously, especially with ATo. 66 will basically play itself at that point.

    Middle to deep stacked I generally don't 3-bet with pairs from 22-JJ and sometimes I cold call with QQ AA too. I can't think of an instance I ever cold called with KK tho.

  • jamtay317
    commented on 's reply
    1Peter510 you asked me to run it with 8% 3 Bet I typed in 8%. We can adjust the ranges a little here, a little there; it is going to adjust the final numbers some. At the end of the day if we think he polarizes his range we need to fold, if we think it's linear we need to call. that is going by the numbers of course and don't forget we only have 300 hands on the villan.

  • CrazyEddie
    commented on 's reply
    why , why not do it already ? why post ? what is derogatory ???? causing u cry so much.... u don't like my comments, don't read them.
    Last edited by CrazyEddie; 11-01-2019, 12:31 AM.

  • kkep
    commented on 's reply
    CrazyEddie I thought it was a shitty comment too. I saw a block option somewhere and when I find that's what I'll do.
    I've been patient long enough.

  • CrazyEddie
    commented on 's reply
    what is more derogatory than most ???? A few people on the forum .. how should I put this ? Ahhh .. I can't tell them apart ...@Mr.Fuss

  • CrazyEddie
    commented on 's reply
    I don't consider anyone's comments beneath anyone. Don't be ridiculous .... You have self esteem problem... if you think that.

    I follow posts / comments of quite a few people here... maybe not yours in particular RealJPB

  • 1Peter510
    replied
    Would 66-88 be in in a BTN 3bet range vs UTG open? I was leaning more toward AJo, KTs, ATo, or K9s. That may be a personal preference thing though, but I tend to play middle pairs for set mining opportunity vs UTG open (maybe even 99 & TT as well) and choose suited broadway cards and offsuit Aces instead (blockers for hands that are more likely to 4bet).

    Also not sure he cbets turn with JJ & TT which is helping out the equity. But to get his Turn Cbet up to 60% we would have to add offsuit AQ & AJ with Ah & Ac depending on what adjustments the above notes had on the range. That may not impact equity for the hand much though.

    Seems like the issues really boil down to:
    1. Is BTN Polar or Linear preflop
    2. Is BTN Cbetting pairs < Top Pair on the turn.
    Also, we have one more street to go and can expect a bet about 40-70% of the time. If we call the turn bet, we have about 68bb behind and pot will be 209.5. We will be getting about 20% pot odds and most likely will have the equity to call.

    Leave a comment:


  • jamtay317
    replied
    now this is the linear range:

    Flop:
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    Turn:
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    if you think they have more of a linear range it looks like a call.

    Leave a comment:


  • jamtay317
    replied
    1Peter510 per your request I will do this again. I've added this to closer to 8% 3bet and 80% CBet this is with a polar range. In the next post, I will do a linear range.

    Flop: may looks something like:
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    and the turn may looks something like:

    so with these stats and polar, it is looking more towards a fold.

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    I'm not sure how accurate the turn is as I have him checking underpairs, so if you feel he is checking the TT JJ QQ, then yes it looks more like a fold.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrFuss
    commented on 's reply
    This particular comment is more derogatory than most and I flagged it. I will probably be flagging more from now on.

  • RealJPB
    commented on 's reply
    I don’t know why Eddie even posts here. He considers any of our opinions beneath him.

  • MrFuss
    commented on 's reply
    click the arrow icon in between the menu and prebuilt ranges

  • kkep
    commented on 's reply
    1Peter510 expand (enlarge) the window down and you will see suit selection

  • kkep
    commented on 's reply
    1Peter510 there is a feature that allows us to import our own ranges. You can try that but I don't know if it will work the way you want it to or not. You can select suites easily in equilab.
    Last edited by kkep; 10-31-2019, 02:45 PM.

  • MrFuss
    commented on 's reply
    You know what eddie, Im growing tired of your attitude. In no way do you actually contribute to a conversation. Your comments are snide and pointless.
    Last edited by MrFuss; 10-31-2019, 02:09 PM.

  • 1Peter510
    commented on 's reply
    jamtay317 I tried working in Flopzilla, but need to be able to add some offsuit Aces to a range where we grab the Ah or Ac. Any ideas on how to do that?

  • kkep
    commented on 's reply
    I missed the Qh on the flop but that was only 1 draw combo. I did remove it on the turn tho

  • CrazyEddie
    commented on 's reply
    no discussion here .. only passive players patting each other on the back ..

  • 1Peter510
    replied
    This kind of post with discussion is exactly what I have been looking for in the forum. I like the debate. Will run through flopzilla myself with some of the new numbers later....

    Leave a comment:


  • MrFuss
    commented on 's reply
    "BUT since joining this site I do find myself calling a lot more often as we have been taught to do with the top of our range."
    Same. I've become somewhat of a calling station (not sure where that came from lol) and am currently trying to work on my F vs Cbet frequency. Right now im 51/35/30

  • kkep
    commented on 's reply
    I don't necessarily disagree with anything you have said. Folding might just be the optimal play and I don't think anyone would suggest it's a snap call on the turn either.

  • kkep
    commented on 's reply
    I get it. I tend to not fold to the first scary card tho. I think another call here puts the V in a tough spot with his bluffs on the river.
    That said there are players I presume will decide I can get sticky with under pairs and barrel again. I hate those players!

    BUT since joining this site I do find myself calling a lot more often as we have been taught to do with the top of our range.

    If I'm going to give up on this turn it would be because I believe the V is rarely if ever bluffing.

    Also there is no rule that says we have to punt off 115BB bc we are 'pot committed' If the obvious draw comes in, the flush or an Ace hits and we check then he rips it in I don't think there is anything wrong with giving up. Oh and if he isn't drawing to the flush a H might shut him down allowing us to realize our full equity as well.

    Conversely we will be in those spots with the nuts sometimes when we play our ranges correctly....

  • MrFuss
    replied
    Holding both Qc and Qh seems very relevant because we block some of BTNs bluffing combos like AQ with FD

    Leave a comment:


  • MrFuss
    commented on 's reply
    kkep totally agree. If BTN opens here im trying to get it in.

  • kkep
    commented on 's reply
    I don't 4-bet pre-flop there either. HU vs this V on the button I wouldn't mind playing for stacks tho.

  • MrFuss
    commented on 's reply
    In play I thought this board nailed BTN value and bluffing range. If I call the turn the pot is 200bb w/ 115bb behind and Im committed no matter what card comes. I thought all 3 actions from BTN was very strong and shipping 170bb w/ QQ feeling marginal did not seem like the best play.

  • kkep
    replied
    Using Peter's suggestions and based on the stats the V seems a bit loose -


    Flop



    Turn



    BU 51.44% 50.02% 1.42% { QQ+, AKs, A5s, KQs, 76s, AhQh, AhJh, AKo }
    SB 48.56% 47.14% 1.42% { QhQc }


    I would suggest he is playing more honestly on the turn - Interestingly, if we remove A5s from his range our equity actually goes down by 2.6%.
    How is that possible?

    Equity Win Tie
    BU 53.92% 53.68% 0.24% { KK+, AKs, A5s, KQs, AhQh, AhJh, 7h6h, AKo }
    SB 46.08% 45.85% 0.24% { QhQc }



    Leave a comment:


  • MrFuss
    commented on 's reply
    That 3betting range seems very wide against UTG open and +1 flat.

  • MrFuss
    replied
    I grabbed some more relevant stats on BTN.
    3bet vs EP 2bet: 7.43
    PF squeeze: 7.48
    Cbet in 3bet pot F:90 T:69 R:69

    Leave a comment:


  • jamtay317
    commented on 's reply
    I will do that tonight when I get home from work.

  • 1Peter510
    commented on 's reply
    Villains 3bet % is 8%, so shouldn't your preflop range be around 8% of hands?

    Villains cbet stat on flop is 80% but it looks like you have him checking 54% of the time. Seems to narrow his range too much in favor of hero.

    Villains cbet stat on turn is 56% but it looks like you have him betting 100%, this keeps too many bluffs in his range which favors villain.

    Can you run flopzilla again showing 80% cbet flop and 56% cbet turn?

    Also, can you run a 2nd scenario where BTN uses a linear range of top 8%? That seems just as likely as a polar range when 3betting an UTG open.

  • jamtay317
    replied
    I am going to review this hand with Flopzilla. I have not done it yet, and I may be totally wrong here, but I do not like folding the turn. you're getting 5:1 on your money and yes the K came but there is no reason to suspect that he has a K. he may have AA,KK but he also may have TT,JJ,QQ, flush draws straight draws that is just owning you with position. Yes, you have a marginal made hand right now. but I am sure you're winning 20% of the time.

    I gave the BTN a polar range here as that is what I think he is doing by 3-betting into a 2 opponents.

    maybe on the flop something like:
    Click image for larger version  Name:	Capture.JPG Views:	0 Size:	184.7 KB ID:	26302

    now the Kof clubs comes and he bets 45BB into 120 you need 21% equity
    and in my opinion, you have 50%
    Click image for larger version  Name:	Capture.JPG Views:	0 Size:	213.3 KB ID:	26304

    I personally think that you should check-call the turn. and see what the river is.
    Last edited by jamtay317; 10-31-2019, 07:32 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrFuss
    commented on 's reply
    Thanks for your input

  • 1Peter510
    commented on 's reply
    For what it's worth, I think it was the right play and the math seems to support it.

  • MrFuss
    commented on 's reply
    I folded and hated it but think it was the right play

  • 1Peter510
    commented on 's reply
    5k hands seem like a pretty good sample to pull from. Obviously it isn't am exact science, but adds to the idea you should fold on the turn.

    What did you end up doing?

  • MrFuss
    commented on 's reply
    The problem is those are just generic cbet stats which probably arent very representative of this particular situation and at 5k hands aren't even extremely reliable to begin with.

  • 1Peter510
    commented on 's reply
    Ok, using those stats here are my thoughts.

    Taking 8% of hands (3bet%), then dropping off 20% of range on the flop, then dropping 44% off on the turn, that makes 72% of his betting range on the turn ahead of you.

    While you beat enough of his range to call given the pot odds, I think it is still a fold given expectations on the river.

  • MrFuss
    commented on 's reply
    cbet stats are F:80, T:56, R:49

    An additional dynamic is that I flat in the SB pre after that action. BTN must know Im strong and barrels the turned K
    Last edited by MrFuss; 10-30-2019, 06:02 PM.

  • 1Peter510
    replied
    I don't like 4betting when the BTN (who has a reasonable 3bet stat) 3bets an UTG open. Making it worse is that there was a caller to UTG open so the 3bet is larger than normal. A pot size 4 bet would be to 53bb which commits us to the pot (if BTN jams our pot odds would be 33% and getting 38% equity against KK+, AK).

    I like the call preflop. I like the call on the flop. Don't see folding an overpair when you are only behind AA & KK and don't need much protection.

    BTN showed a lot of strength on the flop, and now continues betting when the K hits (even though he is betting small). I'm not sure if that is a stronger made hand trying to get value from exactly 66-QQ or if that is a marginal hand trying to rep a K. I guess, if he has turned 77-JJ into a bluff, good for him. I think you fold the turn unless you have stats indicating he bluffs a lot.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrFuss
    commented on 's reply
    Maybe Im giving players too much credit. UTG pots it and UTG +1 calls. They must have strong ranges and then BTN makes a big 3bet. I only have 300 hands on UTG and +1 so Im assuming they're solid. We're also pretty deep. UTG is 100bb but im effective after that w/ 164bb.

    I used most of my time to make this decision. It was not easy.

  • Bentley
    replied
    If he's a lag the I'm raising this preflop especially oop.
    i think you have to call turn but if you know he's 3 barreling on river you could maybe put a blocking bet in.

    Leave a comment:


  • jamtay317
    replied
    Why are you not 4 betting preflop?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrFuss
    started a topic Difficult spot in SB w/ QQ facing action 10NL

    Difficult spot in SB w/ QQ facing action 10NL

    $0.10 NL - 8 players


    MP+1 (MP+1): 95 BB
    CO (CO): 100 BB
    BTN (BTN): 234.4 BB
    Hero (SB): 163.9 BB
    BB (BB): 93 BB
    UTG (UTG): 100 BB
    UTG+1 (UTG+1): 205.3 BB
    MP (MP): 104.2 BB

    Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Dealt to Hero: QhQc

    UTG raises to 3.5 BB, UTG+1 calls 3.5 BB, BTN raises to 15 BB, Hero calls 14.5 BB, UTG calls 11.5 BB

    Flop (49.5 BB, 3 players): 5h5c3h

    Hero checks, UTG checks, BTN bets 35 BB, Hero calls 35 BB

    Turn (119.5 BB, 2 players): Kc

    Hero checks, BTN bets 45 BB, Hero?
    ________________________________



    BTN is a good LAG reg. 27/21/8 w/ 5k hands.
    Last edited by MrFuss; 10-30-2019, 06:06 PM.
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