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Have to go broke?

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  • Have to go broke?

    Playing 25nl 6-max zone poker on Ignition. If you've never played on Bovada/Ignition, it's anonymous. So, while you can't exploit players based on hand history, you also can't be exploited. The only reads are the player pool tendencies, and those with short stacks are generally your weak-passive players. Anyway, to the hand.

    I open HJ to .85 (pot-sized raise) with KK, get 3bet from the cutoff to 2.90. I 4bet to 7.25, and cutoff calls. He started the hand with about $40 (160BB) and I cover him.
    Flop comes J-10-4.
    I check. Why? Honestly, I can't answer that.
    Cutoff bets pretty large, about $11 into $14 or so. In this spot I don't know what to do. Calling feels bad, check-folding seems too nitty. So . . .
    I jam all in. My thinking is he most likely has queens or aces, maybe AK and since he flatted the 4bet pre, that weights him slightly more towards queens. Also, if he happens to have AK, I either deny equity or get it in ahead.
    Cutoff calls, shows aces, and I lose a 320BB pot.
    This one made me kinda sick. Can I ever get away? Is this one of them spots where Kings "has to" go broke? Should I always bet the flop, then possibly find a fold if/when he jams all in?

  • #2
    Originally posted by View Post
    Should I always bet the flop, then possibly find a fold if/when he jams all in?
    Yes I think you should always bet the flop here. It is important to strengthen your checking range, but perhaps AA/JJ would be better here as slightly less vulnerable.

    If we do cbet I don't think I would be able to find a fold here. Yes we are losing to AA (not going to happen too often as generally would be 5bet shoved pre), as well as JJ-TT. JT/44 very unlikely as villain did not have correct implied odds to call 4bet IMO. We are splitting against KK, beating QQ, beating AT+, and also ahead of all the OESD combos (mainly KQ but you may see some 89 combos).


    • #3
      Thanks for your response. Based on my experiences playing these games, there's not very much bluffing or "advanced" plays going on. Sometimes you see stuff out the ordinary, but for the most part these games are generally straightforward, except people play tight and usually bluffing is not advisable. Remember, it's anonymous AND zoom (zone on this site), so balancing isn't important, unless you want to do so for your own personal game (almost like practicing that to make it more natural in your strategy). It's rare for anyone other than those who start the hand with say 60bb or less to do anything really loose or out of the ordinary.


      • #4
        I play pretty much the same stakes as you in a similar format (albeit not anonymous but a large player pool...) and I agree with what you are saying.

        If we take out every draw hand they may have (I really do think KQ should be included here but for arguments sake lets leave it out) and see what we're left with:

        AA: 6 combos (we lose)
        KK: 1 combo (we split - but ignoring for simplicity)
        QQ: 6 combos (we win)
        JJ: 3 combos (win lose)
        TT: 3 combos (we lose)
        AJ: 12 combos (we win)

        So here we will be winning: 18 out of 30 times or 60% of time.

        Again you could argue AJ won't be calling here, but I would argue that the average player pool at these stake massively overvalue TPTK and would be very likely to stack off.

        If we were to include some bluffs in their range our advantage would be even greater.

        Of course this is not precisely how you would work it out away from the table, none of the hands would have a 100% or 0% equity, but I think in a situation like this it is fine.

        Some times we are going to be behind when we get the chips in in this spot, but in the long run I believe this is profitable.


        • #5
          I call the 3-bet OOP and go to the flop. With KK I hate facing a 4-bet jam when it can easily be a hand like AK or QQ, even worse sometimes.
          Had we played in that fashion we would check/call flop and go from there.


          • #6
            Originally posted by kkep View Post
            With KK I hate facing a 4-bet jam when it can easily be a hand like AK or QQ, even worse sometimes.
            I don't understand this - surely that's the ideal outcome?


            • kkep
              kkep commented
              Editing a comment
              This my nitty side. I hate to get 300+BB in pre flop. What are we going to be against? AA or a maniac but how do we know?
              If I wasn't playing that deep than yes, dream scenario.

            • LondonImp
              LondonImp commented
              Editing a comment
              160bb deep like we are here I don't think I'm ever getting away from KK preflop in a cash game. If he has AA I pay him off and reload.

          • #7
            I have to say, you should never check the flop here. If you did check the flop, you shouldn't shove. you have to ask yourself what are you going to get called by? And the answer is only things that you lose to. AA JJ TT. Maybe KQ which you block, that may not be in there calling range.
            Last edited by jamtay317; 10-15-2019, 02:34 PM.


            • #8
              Okay so I have been thinking about this since I posted the last post, and I started running this in Flopzilla. I thought this would be a good hand to do an analysis on.

              so I've given an unknown aggressive villain a 3-betting range of this:
              Click image for larger version

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              And when you 4bet here, which I personally would do when you're called you're now looking at a range like:

              Click image for larger version

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ID:	25431

              so now the flop comes
              when you check he can very profitably bet 61bb(pot) and all of a sudden you're in a tarabble spot with your entire range except JJ TT. even AA doesn't like this, right? However, if you bet let's say 15bb here you can be called by worst and if you then get shoved on well then you know that you can easily fold. YES, it sucks folding an overpair, but again you have to ask your self what is going to do this and in my opinion the only and that you beat that would do this is KQs which you block.

              @JerdA what is your thought on this?