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how I got crushed by a word class player - +eV to flat such an overbet oop on flop?

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  • how I got crushed by a word class player - +eV to flat such an overbet oop on flop?

    the villian is a world class online player with 145k in tournament winnings on pokerstars

    preflop i raised bigger as i dont mind when this wc player folds preflop or at least i want to charge him more

    on flop I wanted to increase fold equity by overbetting my draw

    on turn I got there and wanted to leave back a healthy river bet

    river self explanatory

    what can I say , nothing worked , although he has the nut flush draw and bdsd on flop I am wondering whether it is +eV to flat such an overbet oop on flop especially when he might be drawing dead (i could have or become a full house)?
    Last edited by Guido; 10-09-2019, 10:29 PM.

  • #2
    I don't get this line at all. I would as always make a standard open 2.5x at that stack depth.

    I usually take a stab HU on paired flops when I'm the pre flop aggressor but small 25% or so.
    Then we can call a c/r with our best draws and made hands.

    On the turn we make our straight, there I would bet 1/2 pot which doesn't give him good
    drawing odds when he calls and might keep his MM hands in.

    Then he checks river I'm betting small for value, we are trying to get called by a T maybe a
    K that he hit on the turn - folding to a c/r.


    • #3
      145K winning better be net .. and it had better be in one year. I sat at a table with 3 players who had multiple years of grossing more than $1 M.... Want to guess the buy-in ?
      Not $1050, not even $109

      $145K hardly local hero even .. is what I'm saying

      who would have thought people who gross $2M a year play $33 ??? even while 16 tabling

      on second thought, how else people like me get to play a hand with team pro
      Last edited by CrazyEddie; 10-11-2019, 01:04 AM.


      • CrazyEddie
        CrazyEddie commented
        Editing a comment
        I don't think everyone is able to utilise position to the fullest...

      • CrazyEddie
        CrazyEddie commented
        Editing a comment
        crazy sizing... don't like turn & river sizing ... can't expect to be called on river and win.

    • #4
      I think opening Q9o is way too loose of an open with 2 rejam stacks after you and a strong player in BB. Especially when you are 78bb effective against the BB. Seems like an easy fold preflop to me.

      Would prefer a smaller open with your entire range here to risk less vs a rejam.

      As played, you have a range advantage, but BB actually has the nut advantage. So you should bet frequent and small (200-250).

      As to his flat of your overbet....

      Do you overbet a J here? Most don't because they want to get value from a lot of weak hands. If you do overbet your J's, seems like you are missing out on a lot of value.

      You betting a T here? Most check back since it is a marginal made hand. If you overbet a T, that seems very risky.

      Maybe QQ oberbets here, some people will bet KK and AA. Let's assume that makes sense (overbet AA,KK, QQ and bluffs). Out of 458 combos you open, you have maybe 18 combos of made hands and a lot of bluffs.

      Basically the overbet advertised you have a draw. He beats all the draws (unless you bluff with AK, AQ, A9, A8) and is freerolling to hit his flush. Even including AK and AQ, you have 42 combos that are ahead of him which might overbet, so he can still call pretty comfortably.

      On the turn, the K completes your straight and that makes up about 15-30% of your range depending if you overbet AQ on the flop. You would be pretty balanced here. Still, that K can give him a boat or a straight too. He likely calls your bet with his J's, his T's, his flush and straight draws, and maybe his underpairs. He probably doesn't have AQ since that raises preflop. So your straight is likely the best hand now or was already behind. This seems like the time to bet big if you are going to. If he has a J he isn't folding, if he has a straight you chop, and overbetting charges the most for his draws which may or may not call.

      As played, he is getting 21% pot odds. He is pretty close to being break even on a call to hit his flush or straight. Not unreasonable to expect you to pay off when he hits given your line so far. So, maybe his turn call is marginal but not horrible. Would like to see at least a half pot bet to properly charge his flush draws.

      When the flush gets there, you have an even more marginal hand so I don't like your bet at all. The spade makes it less likely he calls with his J's that you beat. Certainly folding his T's and underpairs. So most likely only calling with a flush, a boat, a straight.


      • MrFuss
        MrFuss commented
        Editing a comment
        "As played, you have a range advantage, but BB actually has the nut advantage. So you should bet frequent and small"

        When you have both range and nut advantage, you bet frequently and small.
        When you have range adv and nut disadv, you bet infreqently and small.

        So in this case you would be small with only your very best made hands and draws.

      • 1Peter510
        1Peter510 commented
        Editing a comment
        The way it was laid out in the webinar was that range advantage dictates frequency and nut/polarization advantage dictates size. So range advantage and nut disadvantage is frequent and small.

    • #5
      Console yourself that if you did have a Full House you would have all but stacked him!

      You simply gave him too good pot odds on the turn and he has to call.

      Your bet sizing on all rounds probably looked a little fishy to him to be fair and the river shove is polarizing to nuts and bluffs so he has to call with the nut flush here. As it turned out you had neither the nuts or a good bluff. You had a marginal made hand at best on the river, so defo look at your bet sizing and make sure it is doing the job you need it to, to be better balanced.

      Also of note is the fact you mention that you prolly changed your pre flop sizing because of the "world class" player on the BB, suggests you were playing the whole hand emotionally.

      The subsequent bet sizes tell a similar story.

      But don't ya just hate when those lucky bast...ds get there!


      • #6
        on JJT why does the BB villian has the nut advantage ? to my mind nobody has the nut advantage here


        • 1Peter510
          1Peter510 commented
          Editing a comment
          The range I gave BB has him defending with J4s+, J9o+. I am figuring you open from the CO with J8s+, JTo+.

          On that board, he has 8 more combos of suited jacks and 8 more combos of offsuit jacks giving him the nut advantage. Maybe he 3bets AJo preflop, but that just drops 8 combos out of the 16 combo advantage. He may also call with J3s and J2s adding 4 combos.

          If you open with J7s or J9o, you are opening too wide there. If anything, the range I gave you is too wide with 2 rejam stacks behind you. But that is the range that gets you to Q9o.

      • #7
        in Hindsight it was an absolute unnecessary bustout. i misplayed the Hand on pretty much any street . thx for the Feedback.

        i have experiemented with draws overbetting As an exploit a lot (not for value) and it seems to work fine vs Bad players but not that much vs thinking Opponents

        i will Go back to 65-75 % potsize As a default on wet boards when not too short stacked and to 25%-33% on dry Boards and something in between on semi wet Boards assuming i am in position and have Not at the same Time the range and polarisation advantage

        also preflop i will Go back to default sizings.

        thx for the Quality answers
        Last edited by Guido; 10-12-2019, 03:17 AM.


        • Paul Khoo
          Paul Khoo commented
          Editing a comment
          as a poker community, i also hope you can improve your poker , i think its still best to explore different and big bet sizes then your default sizes. against good thinking player what we need is balance, againist bad player we might dont need to balance . one hand really dont say much

      • #8
        one hand cant comment much , but i dont think he play very wrong , i would say the your river bet for thin value is abit discussable , i am not saying wrong , i think is depend for this river bet


        • Paul Khoo
          Paul Khoo commented
          Editing a comment
          if he is defending wide preflop , he has too many hand in his hand to fold , if he fold this hand he will be overfold , it means you just bet with anytwo card and you will be printing ev

      • #9
        Well, if my opinion matters, I think you played the hand fine until the turn when you got cute. Drop the hammer, the only reasonable hand villain has is the combo draw which may or may not call a big bet.


        • Guido
          Guido commented
          Editing a comment
          thx this was the hopefully one and done comeback of my tiny bets for value desperately wanting to play 3 streets syndrom