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$5/5 JJ UTG+1 odd Villain line

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  • $5/5 JJ UTG+1 odd Villain line

    This one came near the end of a session the other night. I was tired and a bunch of fresh players had just sat down. Maybe you can tell me what I did right or wrong or what the Villain's actions mean because I was not sure about the line in general.

    OTTH

    $5/5 near midnight
    Hero JJ UTG+1 $1350
    Villain ?? SB $1000
    Villain is late 20's or early 30's white bro, out of state East coast sports jersey, sat down a few hands ago, bit chatty/smirky.

    Hero opens $20
    Fold to Villain SB call, BB calls.

    Pot $55
    Flop T85r
    Villain reaches towards chips, pauses, then bets $10 (‽), BB calls, Hero raises to $75, SB fairly quickly makes it $175, BB folds, Hero calls.

    Pot $415
    Turn (T85)8r
    Villain bets $230, Hero short tank calls.

    Pot $875
    River (T858)Kr
    Villain bets $105, Hero calls.
    Last edited by reeeeeeper; 09-09-2019, 11:00 PM.

  • #2
    At first glance this seems more or less fine to me.

    When people min-donk (which this pretty much is) I tend to practically ignore the bet (apart from it's effect on the pot-size) and proceed as I would had they not made the bet. Generally calling if I would usually check.

    So with JJ on this flop texture against two opponents I would be looking to c-bet ~2/3 pot normally. So I'd have raised here to about $40-45 as opposed to $75.

    When he re-raises our hand is too strong to fold as we are ahead of his draws and his overvalued TPTK type-hands. We are of course now behind his 2p and sets.

    When the turn and river run off without completing any of the straights and with villain betting quite small I think we have to call down here.

    His tiny river bet is very fishy (both suspicious and a play I'd expect from a fish) - I'd still be calling but definitely noting down what he showed up with.

    (OTTH = On to the hand?)


    [EDIT: What are you trying to achieve with your big raise on the flop? It seems like you're trying to make an exploitative play but to what ends?]
    Last edited by LondonImp; 09-10-2019, 03:46 AM.

    Comment


    • reeeeeeper
      reeeeeeper commented
      Editing a comment
      Big raise? A pot sized raise would be $95 at that point, so $75 isn't gigantic. But you're probably right that it's a little too big here.

      And yes, that's what OTTH means.
      Last edited by reeeeeeper; 09-10-2019, 05:55 AM.

  • #3
    I've thought about adding some of these blocker bets to my game as they do have the ability to put you in goofy spots. I struggle with when to raise vs when to just call in these spots. I think raising is fine since he bet so small. I might've gone a little smaller, maybe $55? I worry going too large forces him to fold out some of the Tx we want him calling with.

    Him reraising you on the flop is somewhat concerning, particularly because you block a bunch his bluff combos.

    On the flip side, when the 8 pairs on the turn he also loses a decent number of value combos (I doubt he'd donk / reraise flop with 8x but maybe he's completely clueless).

    I think I'd have played turn and river same as you did. After seeing his river sizing I think his most likely holding is Tx or a very sad bluff attempt.

    Comment


    • #4
      Sometimes it's hard to determine what villains actions mean because they don't even know what it means. Not saying that is the case here, but it does happen.

      This is the beauty of live poker (and the later we play the crazier stuff we have a chance of seeing). He could be 7-8 beers deep, tilted because his team just lost a big game, new to poker, etc etc. Our job is to take the limited amount of info we have, dissect it as quickly as possible and make the most profitable decision.

      Flop

      We face a 1/5 sized pot bet from the SB on a T high board. A large majority of the time this is weak (Tx hands, 8x hands, small/med pairs, or a weak attempt of a bluff (maybe JQ, 97, KQ, KJ, etc). The issue as RealJPB pointed out is we block a ton of the straight combos. So this is more often than not him betting with what he perceives to be as something or a bluff. The real problem is getting inside his head and determining what something is.

      On the flip side, he might be an experienced player and doing this to induce. I have done this before and it surprisingly works very effectively against the right opponents. But that usually takes time to realize who to do it against. So we can't rule out very strong hands here. 88, TT, T8s, 55 or even something silly like T5s or 85s. Overpairs don't make much sense. QQ is the only real possibility (a slim one).

      I like the raise here as we accomplish the two reasons for betting:

      1. We are making the pot bigger in case we win.
      2. Deny the ability for our opponent to realize his equity.

      Betting also will trim the field down and protect our somewhat vulnerable JJ's.

      I would probably go a bit smaller with my raise as well. $50-$60 range. I don't want to scare off the Tx, 8x type of hands. Im not worried about being "balanced" in this spot so an even smaller raise is interesting and something to think about as it might accomplish the same thing as a larger raise.

      Now we are re-popped to $175. You say "fairly quickly" and often times a player with a set or even a Tx here would take a second to think. This is not always the case, but no thinking at all is suspicious to me. Again, this depends on your definition of "fairly quickly". Often times snap plays are signs of draws. But again, not always the case.

      I like the call here. No need to raise and if we fold I think we could be folding the winning hand a little too often here.

      We are ahead of all the draws and all of the pairs. With $400 in the pot and $800 behind the effective stack we still have some room.

      Turn

      When the board pairs he now bets a little more than 1/2 pot. Continuing his story that he is strong.

      IMO this is the main decision in the hand. If we call it leaves villain $575 behind and will create a pot of $875. So often times we will be facing a river jam (against most decent thinking opponents).

      I would do my best to get some read on villain. If I thought villain has a lot of Tx in his range or bluffs, then this is a call. I just can't see too many 8x hands playing the flop this way. So he is either on 55, or maybe T8 for value. And of course bluffs.

      This description leads me to call and be prepared to call off most rivers.

      River

      This seems like some kind of blocking bet on the river.

      You only have to call $105 into $980. So I am never folding.

      I highly doubt this is a pure air ball bluff as he can't expect to get a fold with this sizing.

      I would hope to see a Tx, maybe 99 or middling pocket pair.

      But more often that not I would would expect to see a bluff of his catch that K on the river, maybe QQ and JJ some small percentage of the time. And of course boats and some 8x (although I would expect these hands to bet larger a large percentage of the time).

      We just can't fold to this price on the river and we don't have to be right very often at all.
      Last edited by JredA; 09-10-2019, 07:00 AM.

      Comment


      • #5
        We open the hand, get 3-bet and call on the flop then the V still leads out for 1/2 pot on the turn.
        We are clearly building up to a big pot and we only have a 1 pair hand that is unlikely to improve.

        So what were your thoughts when facing his 3-bet here? I suspect Jacks went right into marginal
        made/bluff catcher?

        This is the point where I have to decide if I'm willing to play for $1000 (200BB) with a pair of Jacks,
        any pair really, vs an opponent that I have no clue about, on a paired board.

        The nit side of my brain has me folding on the turn. It's ok to fold what might be the best hand
        sometimes. I generally don't play for big pots with a marginal hand but that's not always easy.

        I fight much harder for pots in tournaments than I do cash but I also think most players play more
        honestly in tournaments. Meaning I generally have a better sense of what ranges they are playing.
        I don't know if that's the right philosophy or not yet but it seems to be serving me well so far.

        If we are thinking the V was capped with a Tx those type of players generally slow down when
        facing aggression, not up the ante.

        Sometimes they will 3-bet the flop with AT and maybe KT, more unlikely QT. But Tx shrivels up
        rather quickly when that bet is called. Yet he is still coming at us on the turn and we have no
        idea if he is the type of player that over values marginal hands or if he's just a maniac bluffing
        his ass off...

        Serious question because I rarely play cash with any advanced players whatsoever.

        How many good players continue betting with draws after the flop action on this turn?
        Can they love it when they hit a straight which could fill up the hero with QQ's full, JJ's' full and
        maybe 99's full and of course we can already have TT's full and possible but most unlikely quads?

        As for the river we just can't fold no matter how milky it feels and I would be thrilled that I didn't
        have to call off the full 470 he has behind.

        Comment


        • #6
          Thanks guys.

          I agree that the turn is the decision point. Honestly, I don't see him doing this with TX and think I made a mistake due to being tired. Looking back, I could have picked up a small live read on the paise before betting the $10. I think it meant he was going to bet larger but decided to bet small to induce me to raise so he could re-raise, that's why he was able to bump it to $175 so quickly.

          I'm fine with calling the bump and seeing a turn. My hand does become marginal bluff catcher at that point so I'm basically seeing if he means it and follows up with a turn barrel Which he did, without much deliberation. Yes, that could mean it was some sort of planned semi-bluff that looks very strong, and I've certainly seen things like that from players who just sat down and misguidedly decide they're gonna run over the table. Guys right around the demographic described. Still, I think I could have pieced together this actually leans toward strength because I don't think guys like that are usually devious enough to make the inducing bet, they're more pure bravado firing away. With all of these factors I could have just taken the discretionary route and given up a marginal hand and move on to the next hand. Instead, I decided he was pulling some frippery and wanted to realize my equity.

          So actually, when he made the small river bet I was a little relieved that I could realize it cheaply However, it screams value even if blocking, and I'd already reduced the odds that he had TX that would want to block. That leaves a KX bluff that got there and doesn't want to face a big bet from me, or some strange hand I don't expect, maybe a weak 8X that also doesn't want to face a big bet for whatever reason, or that slim chance of QQ or JJ that JredA mentioned. So really, maybe I should have turned my hand into a bluff here and gone all-in. I just chose the small loss curiosity move instead. I think maybe in this $5/5 game I need to be a little more audacious, it's not nearly as soft as the $2/3 game. However, that would have been super bold and risky and may not have worked, so I'm ok with the small mistakes here and learning from them. I think just making a turn fold is best for me and my general approach to the game.

          In any case, he branded himself as super tricky with this one. He had AA. I'm glad to hear that you guys didn't think the turn call was toooo awful. At the time it's what made me realize I should have gotten up from the table as soon as all the fresh players sat down. I was just in a playing mood, it happens. In any case, we'll see if the "just out of town looking to gamble" guy is back again, in which case the trickery extends to a lot more than just this line.

          Comment


          • #7
            I thought about turning our hand into a bluff with a river jam going through this hand, but I don't think its a good spot to do so. We have significant showdown value and are getting a price that is very, very good to just call. Villain has all the nut hands in his range and we only have TT and KK (and the one combo of 88 out there). Sometimes we make the right plays and lose the hand, it happens.

            If my quick math is right villain only needs like 25% equity to call if you jam. So what hands that beat you will fold to this price? The small portion of Kx hands that were bluffing? The Tx hands we already beat?

            I doubt he folds his AA in this spot to your jam and if we range him on this river and count the combo's he has, a jam only folds out hands we beat and most likely gets called a large percentage of the time to the hands that beat us.

            When lines don't add up or make sense, I tend to call unless I have some read on the villain or the price we are getting is extremely poor. And this spot fits into that mold. Take a mental not on this villain that he is capable of this and hopefully you get to sit in a game with him again.

            As discussed the real decision is on the turn. When the 8 peels off it is much less likely he has pocket 8's, TT and 55 are there and we block so many draws w/ the JJ. And if we were x/r on this flop and called a x/r on the flop I can get behind a fold on the turn. I just have a hard time folding when he leads for $10, then re-pops our raise. It is a line that does not make a ton of sense.

            Comment


            • reeeeeeper
              reeeeeeper commented
              Editing a comment
              You have a good point about the price he's getting if we jam. Agreed on all counts.
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