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Same mistake......over and over and over

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  • Same mistake......over and over and over

    I have noticed a consistent error in my game. Hands go fine- until I get raised, then I have a nasty habit of making the same errors over and over.

    The specific error is, in itself, unimportant- but I will describe it for clarity (also as in trying to clear this problem I have said I will post all my "blow up" hands publicly so I suffer the humiliation!)

    So the better players here will be aware of MDF, and splitting ranges into reraises, calls and folds. That's all balanced,fine and correct. But swimming in the murky passive, low stakes live games I play in (game selection, game selection, game selection!) we need to move the goalposts. A raise is an unusual event, and is very heavily weighted towards strengths. To exploititavely adapt to this, I now have a default position of just folding when raised. Yes, this is exploitable, but since most players are completely unaware it works. I am sure I get bluffed in some spots, but I lose less than by calling with a weaker range. This strategy is suggested by Alex Fitzgerald, where we basically fold even weak 2 pair hands.

    So that's what I should have done.

    In the hand in question, I am in the SB, and a very loose (but good/successful) button limps.

    I raise to 2.8X, BB & button call.

    I am now OOP with JJ in a multiway pot........... never an ideal spot.

    Flop is A,5,9 rainbow.

    I lead for 3BB, since it is such a dry flop- they either have an ace, or they don't. I maybe should have checked since it's multiway and I am OOP- but I prefer a small bet here with my entire range.

    BB folds, button (who will call with a very wide range here) calls.

    Turn 3x

    I'm not liking it, but decide I can try get to showdown by betting small on turn and river for value- not losing too much if he has the ace.

    I bet again for 5BB, and he jams for about 20BB from memory.

    So following the strategy above, it's really simple. I have 2nd pair facing a raise- it's a clear fold. I beat absolutely nothing that is value betting here. But I persuade myself that he could be bluffing (but with what?) or something and make the call.

    In a small amount of mitigation for me, he turned over 2-4o, so whilst he basically had the nuts I was right in my plan to value bet. But that doesn't excuse my deviation and lack of discipline from the plan. Whilst the hand didn't bust me, it did seriously damage my stack from being very comfortable to scrapping to get back into the game.

    So, the real point underlying the post is:

    How do you stop yourself making the same recurring leak over and over once you have identified them.

    How do you break those bad habits?


  • #2
    Lots to talk about here....

    First of all whenever we make a mistake on later streets, more often than not, the error begins on previous streets.

    In your HH I would have:

    1) raised larger pre

    2) check this flop multi-way - you are playing low stakes. There is no need to worry about what you would do w/ your entire range. You have a marginal hand. Play it that way.

    3) you contradict yourself w/ your turn actions. You say you want to get to showdown, but you also say you want to get value, so which is it? Then you say you don't want to lose much if he has an Ace. If you want to get to showdown cheaply...check. If villain is a calling station and you want value...bet. You can't do both.

    4) when raise just fold, what can you beat?

    I think you have a hard time putting players on ranges and going through the thought process in game.

    Study away from the table and study hard putting opponents on ranges. Then when in game FORCE yourself in a hand to take an extra second and think through your spots. Don't be afraid to tank some, don't worry if you get the clock called on you. But whatever you do, don't just act to act. Have a reason for EVERYTHING. But you have to slow down and think because your OP sounds like a lot is going on in your head in game and your not taking the time to think.

    The one thing that helped me when I was scrambling in game was to ask myself "why" before making a move. Have a reason for everything you do and don't rush.

    Comment


    • #3
      Betting on an dry Ace Flop into 2 players viable in position when checked to but Checking back also fine , here you are oop vs 2 players not a good Time for cbetting with marginal Hand, especially Because People Love to play aces

      From turn on Plan to Check fold . There is no reason at all to bet. You are beating nothing

      after he jams it is at least 90 percent clear he has an Ace or better

      Losing is not Fun so dont be courious or think People bluff often vs you. In fact they Dont. Population tendency People bluff Not often enough but call too often
      Last edited by Guido; 09-08-2019, 01:34 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JredA View Post
        Lots to talk about here....

        First of all whenever we make a mistake on later streets, more often than not, the error begins on previous streets.

        In your HH I would have:

        1) raised larger pre

        2) check this flop multi-way - you are playing low stakes. There is no need to worry about what you would do w/ your entire range. You have a marginal hand. Play it that way.

        3) you contradict yourself w/ your turn actions. You say you want to get to showdown, but you also say you want to get value, so which is it? Then you say you don't want to lose much if he has an Ace. If you want to get to showdown cheaply...check. If villain is a calling station and you want value...bet. You can't do both.

        4) when raise just fold, what can you beat?

        I think you have a hard time putting players on ranges and going through the thought process in game.

        Study away from the table and study hard putting opponents on ranges. Then when in game FORCE yourself in a hand to take an extra second and think through your spots. Don't be afraid to tank some, don't worry if you get the clock called on you. But whatever you do, don't just act to act. Have a reason for EVERYTHING. But you have to slow down and think because your OP sounds like a lot is going on in your head in game and your not taking the time to think.

        The one thing that helped me when I was scrambling in game was to ask myself "why" before making a move. Have a reason for everything you do and don't rush.
        I agree with JredA:

        1. Raise larger. 2.8 is fine as an open IP, but with a limper from SB, it should probably be around 4.8 instead.

        2. Check because you have a marginal pair OOP. Yes, the flop is good for your perceived range, but you do NOT have an ace, and since 2 players called, it is likely at least one of them does. You bet with your entire range when IP, not OOP.

        3. Yes, you want to get to showdown cheaply, so just check.

        4. Being raised when you don't want to be raised is why you check. You can call down comfortably as long as villain does not overbet multiple streets.

        It's difficult to range when in the middle of pressure situations. Do whatever you do that helps you concentrate. Close your eyes, stretch (in your seat), stare at your cards, your chips, your hands, whatever helps you concentrate, then go back through the hand and assign a range to each action villain made. Make allowances for tightness, looseness, aggressiveness, passivity, etc. Don't worry about taking too long. I guarantee you won't take as long as people who are doing it just to hollywood. Start with preflop, and work forward. Do it over and over each hand, no matter what the decision is, and it will get faster with experience. Do it when you're not in a hand, and see if you can determine a small range of hands at least one player shows down.

        Comment


        • #5
          Based on villain's hand, I am going to construct a range analysis. Assumptions I am going to make: he would raise just about any hand with 2 cards T or higher, play almost any big card, and any two cards that can make a straight from the button (seems like that kind of player). He will bluff if he misses his draw. If any of that seems wrong, let me know.

          Preflop range:
          Last edited by Mayday; 09-08-2019, 02:15 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            What I am unsure about is this: Why is he calling otf with such a terrible draw? Maybe he knows you could have an ace and assumes a xr won't get thru, so he's floating and hoping for a good bluff card?

            Here's what I have for the flop assuming floats:

            Comment


            • #7
              No arguments from me about screwing the hand up- I know I did! That's why I posted it, to rub the salt in!

              As far as ranging goes- I know I am beat there as soon as he raises, but somehow managed to talk myself into a call on a virtually non-existent bluff.

              I have a couple of questions I try to work into my thought process- nothing complicated:

              Value- I am betting because I get called by X (which I beat)
              Bluff- I am betting because X folds (which beats me)

              I'm trying to go through this in my head every hand- I even write a code for it on the back of my hand- but I can't seem to make it a routine.

              Comment


              • Mayday
                Mayday commented
                Editing a comment
                You don't know you're beat. He could have 34 and is turning it into a bluff. That's why pot bloating errors earlier in the hand are so costly. If the pot was smaller, calling and folding are not such big errors when you are wrong.

            • #8
              This has been pretty much said above, but I'll add my thoughts anyway.

              When we are facing a limper and we want to make an isolation raise just stick the old formula: 3bb + 1bb per limper + 1bb if OOP. This would've been a raise to 5 bb preflop - almost certainly ending the hand.

              On the flop I can just about get behind the small bet. You've referenced Alex Fitzgerald in your OP so I presume this is an exploitative play you've learned from him for weaker opponents i.e. generally they have a static calling range and will call with an A and fold anything else. This allows you to clean up your equity and fold out any overcards they may have. I just don't think it works nearly as well versus 2+ opponents and when you also have showdown value anyway. In this case you want to keep your opponents in with wide ranges here.

              When it gets to the turn the balluga theorem is just so important. Unless you have actually witnessed villain doing this with a bluff, at the lower stakes this is an easy fold.

              Comment


              • #9
                Hi Andy. You've heard of Baluga Theorem, right?

                Baluga Theorem states that when a fishy player raises, or check raises on the turn, your one pair hands are beat. This is how they (the fish) play sets, straights and two pair hands and they NEVER balance their play with bluffs.

                If he's wearing a PokerCoaching.com patch, then you can consider calling.

                Comment

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