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  • $5/5 kk utg+1

    Finally had my first winning $5/5 session. I wasn't sure about how I played this hand though and I was wondering your thoughts.
    ​​​​​​
    ~$2000 (Hero is effective) $5/5 early evening Friday
    KdKc UTG+1

    UTG 50's white guy limps
    Hero UTG+1 raises to $25
    V1 TAG/LAG MP (30's white guy, known in the poker community, semi-pro, semi-business) calls
    UTG calls

    Pot $80
    Flop Jh8d4h
    UTG checks
    Hero $55
    V1 calls
    UTG folds

    Pot $190
    Turn (Jh8c4h)9d
    Hero checks
    V1 bets $115
    Hero calls

    Pot $420
    River (Jh8c4h9d)8d
    Hero checks
    V1 bets $290

    V1 had been playing a lot of pots with Hero. Several times 3-betting and Hero folds, but has started calling pre and being aggressive post-flop after being caught 3-betting light. This is why Hero played this way against him OOP.

    River?
    Other thoughts?
    Last edited by reeeeeeper; 09-07-2019, 01:39 AM.

  • #2
    I call river not loving it , he can easily have overplayed AJ , QQ, flush draws have missed .. i think you cannot fold here , raising out of the question so call is the only play or fold read based but certainly not against this villian

    before river I play the Hand exactly As you did

    Comment


    • #3
      I think I call. Worried about QT and 89.
      would villain ever overbet as a bluff? It does look more like a value bet.
      When he was caught 3 being light what was his line and what was his bet size.

      Comment


      • reeeeeeper
        reeeeeeper commented
        Editing a comment
        3-bet line: I raised EP, he 3b MP (he's two to my left), LAG/semi-maniac calls, back to me I fold. I forget the rest of the action but he ended up showing up with 65s pair 5's on the river catching LAG's bluff. Everyone noticed that one because they wondered what the hell LAG had. I noticed because I raised EP and he 3b me from MP with that. I had folded AJo or ATo because I didn't think it'd play well OOP against both of those guys, especially with a 3b from that position. His preflop 3b size was 70 over my 20. I don't remember the details of the rest other than him calling the 200 bluff on the end (nice one!).
        Last edited by reeeeeeper; 09-07-2019, 08:35 AM.

    • #4
      You might run a range analysis of this hand using the range analyzer. This hand is ugly. Not your fault. I ran it, and it's so bad, I'm embarrassed to post it. LOL. All the hands that check turn get worse on the river. QT becomes almost worthless because all the sets become boats. The only great hand that possibly check/calls turn and doesn't shrink is 88, and that's IF you check turn. Maybe you check JJ, but with villain betting, and seemingly liking his hand, why wait til river when a bad card (like an 8) can slow him down?

      The only hands I have left that check/call turn and check river are one pair hands, and on this board, that's horrible. Please, other people prove me wrong!
      Last edited by Mayday; 09-07-2019, 11:13 PM.

      Comment


      • #5
        Call he has plenty bluffs and he as shown the propensity to do so. He may also be over valuing some marginal Jx hands.
        He will show up with some big hands here as well but I don't think we should be folding an over pair.

        Comment


        • #6
          Originally posted by reeeeeeper View Post

          V1 had been playing a lot of pots with Hero. Several times 3-betting and Hero folds, but has started calling pre and being aggressive post-flop after being caught 3-betting light. This is why Hero played this way against him OOP.
          If what you mean by this quote above is that you wanted to induce villain by checking, calling here is mandatory.

          Villain sounds like a decent player, so he could be value betting some Jx along with having a ton of bluffs in his range and taking advantage of position. You don't have the Kh, so all the flush draws containing the Kh, Ah, etc all missed. Im calling this off against this player all day. You might get shown QT or 8x a very small portion of the time, but more often than not you will scoop this pot. The board pairing on the end even gives you a better 2 pair (say he had J9 on the turn).

          Although this hand may or may not have worked out for you, I prefer betting this turn at a high frequency. It's a board that connects decently well with villains range (as far as giving giving him some additional equity), we are OOP and I don't want to give villain the green light to bomb away on turn + river. Plus I want to get some value from all his Jx holdings and protect against all of those hands that gained equity. There are a lot of river cards villain could use to drive you off your hand when you check putting you in a tough spot.

          Im probably sizing up here targeting all his Jx and putting him in a tough spot. $150 or so sounds right. I would use the same sizing w/ my bluffs.

          Against good thinking players I tend to think my range vs their range. Against bad players I think my hand vs their range.

          This turn card is a great one for our bluff barreling range so we need value hands to stay balanced. KK is for sure one of them. If we want to protect our checking range I think I would rather check w/ QQ here as we heavily block lots of draws he could have (plus QT). Hands like KQ, JQ, Q9s, AQ even if he decided too flat pre. All of these hands have decent equity against us, but QQ heavily blocks them. So I would feel better giving a "free" card to him or x/c his turn/river bet with QQ in my hand - but I still think I would prefer betting QQ here and checking a hand like QJ or KJ.

          So my turn range might look something like this:

          Click image for larger version  Name:	Screen Shot 2019-09-08 at 7.48.10 AM.png Views:	0 Size:	282.0 KB ID:	23931 Not perfectly balanced at 1:1 Value to Bluff, but very close. And honestly at lower stakes like $2/5 and $5/5 I don't mind being slightly shaded toward value w/ my Value to Bluff ratios.

          Note: When creating this range I went back and forth on AKo on the turn. Part of me wants to fire w/ the Ah combo's so we have the nut flush blocker for potential river bluffs, but the other wants me to fire w/ out the Ah as it makes it more likely he is on a heart draw.
          Last edited by JredA; 09-08-2019, 08:16 AM.

          Comment


          • JredA
            JredA commented
            Editing a comment
            This is my turn betting range..IE the hands that I bet flop w/ and arrived w/ on the turn. For example my opening range in this spot would be around 10% of hands. A4s is one of them, but I would have checked that on the flop, therefore it would not have had it in my turn range as it was checked on the flop so I just eliminate it (easier to count combos this way). JTs I would have checked on this flop as well. AJo would have been a fold pre. So none of these make it to the turn as played.

          • reeeeeeper
            reeeeeeper commented
            Editing a comment
            This turn card is a great one for our bluff barreling range so we need value hands to stay balanced. KK is for sure one of them. If we want to protect our checking range I think I would rather check w/ QQ here as we heavily block lots of draws he could have (plus QT). Hands like KQ, JQ, Q9s, AQ even if he decided too flat pre. All of these hands have decent equity against us, but QQ heavily blocks them. So I would feel better giving a "free" card to him or x/c his turn/river bet with QQ in my hand - but I still think I would prefer betting QQ here and checking a hand like QJ or KJ.
            This is a great point. Will definitely focus on thinking more along these lines with my range action distribution in the future.

          • kkep
            kkep commented
            Editing a comment
            I understand this is your turn range but 76s indicates to me that your opening range is closer to 33% of hands?

        • #7
          Originally posted by JredA View Post

          If what you mean by this quote above is that you wanted to induce villain by checking, calling here is mandatory.

          Villain sounds like a decent player, so he could be value betting some Jx along with having a ton of bluffs in his range and taking advantage of position. You don't have the Kh, so all the flush draws containing the Kh, Ah, etc all missed. Im calling this off against this player all day. You might get shown QT or 8x a very small portion of the time, but more often than not you will scoop this pot. The board pairing on the end even gives you a better 2 pair (say he had J9 on the turn).

          Although this hand may or may not have worked out for you, I prefer betting this turn at a high frequency. It's a board that connects decently well with villains range (as far as giving giving him some additional equity), we are OOP and I don't want to give villain the green light to bomb away on turn + river. Plus I want to get some value from all his Jx holdings and protect against all of those hands that gained equity. There are a lot of river cards villain could use to drive you off your hand when you check putting you in a tough spot.

          Im probably sizing up here targeting all his Jx and putting him in a tough spot. $150 or so sounds right. I would use the same sizing w/ my bluffs.

          Against good thinking players I tend to think my range vs their range. Against bad players I think my hand vs their range.

          This turn card is a great one for our bluff barreling range so we need value hands to stay balanced. KK is for sure one of them. If we want to protect our checking range I think I would rather check w/ QQ here as we heavily block lots of draws he could have (plus QT). Hands like KQ, JQ, Q9s, AQ even if he decided too flat pre. All of these hands have decent equity against us, but QQ heavily blocks them. So I would feel better giving a "free" card to him or x/c his turn/river bet with QQ in my hand - but I still think I would prefer betting QQ here and checking a hand like QJ or KJ.

          So my turn range might look something like this:

          Click image for larger version Name:	Screen Shot 2019-09-08 at 7.48.10 AM.png Views:	0 Size:	282.0 KB ID:	23931 Not perfectly balanced at 1:1 Value to Bluff, but very close. And honestly at lower stakes like $2/5 and $5/5 I don't mind being slightly shaded toward value w/ my Value to Bluff ratios.

          Note: When creating this range I went back and forth on AKo on the turn. Part of me wants to fire w/ the Ah combo's so we have the nut flush blocker for potential river bluffs, but the other wants me to fire w/ out the Ah as it makes it more likely he is on a heart draw.
          And this is the problem I mentioned. Once he checks turn, look at what he has left! It's all garbage. We have to have some way to combat that, right? Does this require a check with almost everything otf?
          Last edited by Mayday; 09-08-2019, 10:33 AM.

          Comment


          • JredA
            JredA commented
            Editing a comment
            I am not quite sure what you mean by "once he checks turn, look at what he has left!"

            The above range is my betting range if I was the Hero for the turn. I prefer a bet over a check on flop and turn.

            We have QQ and QJ in our checking range to protect against a bet if villain decides to do so on the turn. Both of which I would call a bet from the villain with if he bet on the turn after our check.
            Last edited by JredA; 09-08-2019, 10:38 AM.

          • Mayday
            Mayday commented
            Editing a comment
            I assumed you were checking the marginal hands, since that is standard, and you did not indicate you were betting them. I think a bet is natural otf, but more suspect ott because around half the hands that were calling otf are now better than we are. AA, KK, QQ, AJ, KQ are probably 3b pre; KJs, QJs, QTs(?), JTs, J9s, J8s(?), T9s, T8s(?), 98s would be here. (Question marks are villain dependent.) Of those, QTs, J9s, J8s, 98s are now ahead. That's 4 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 13 hands. We are still ahead of 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 15. So, yeah, I guess it's ok to bet, but it's pretty close.
            Last edited by Mayday; 09-08-2019, 01:04 PM.

        • #8
          Thanks for all of the feedback guys!

          Yes, if I check to induce I have to call here given the way he's been playing. I thought since I'm new to $5/5 and he hadn't seen me around I thought it would be good to strengthen my calling range so he wouldn't think he had free range to run me over every time. JredA hit the nail on the head though that QQ is a much better candidate for this, but I was just looking for any hand I could send this message with and the dealer didn't let me choose.

          He showed up with QJ. I really like his river bet actually. It depolarizes his big river bet range which makes it much harder to bluff catch against him. Worked out this time for the message I wanted to send, but still forces me to think hard when playing against him as well.

          Thanks again guys.

          Comment


          • kkep
            kkep commented
            Editing a comment
            Well, I rarely try to induce bluffs but rather concentrate on protecting my check calling range. So in my opinion it's better to bet QQ because it blocks his str8 draws and check call AA KK. However I haven't ranged this so I might like checking QQ as well but if I have to choose one of those 3 to barrel with it's going to be QQ.

          • JredA
            JredA commented
            Editing a comment
            This certainly worked out well for you from an EV standpoint as you pretty much got max value.

            I do wonder what he would have done if you bet large on the turn, then again on river. I would imagine he calls turn, then folds river.

            Make mental notes on this spot, especially if you face him again.

          • reeeeeeper
            reeeeeeper commented
            Editing a comment
            I'll definitely play him again, he's always there and does promotional stuff involved with the casino.

        • #9
          kkep

          No way am I opening 33% of hands from UTG1 after a UTG limp in a cash game, this would be WAAAY to loose. And as you can see 76s is my lowest suited connector. If the game is soft w/ a low 3b percentage I might expand a bit and add in A2s and some hands like A9s, J9s and 56s.

          Here is my default opening range in this spot, this is the same as my UTG opening range in this spot:

          Click image for larger version  Name:	Screen Shot 2019-09-08 at 11.36.53 AM.png Views:	0 Size:	136.4 KB ID:	23951
          Last edited by JredA; 09-08-2019, 11:47 AM.

          Comment


          • #10
            That's fine. This is the Flopzilla range with 76s at the very bottom just using the slider, 33.4%. I never liked how that works BTW



            This the PIO GTO 100+BB range 76s is out side of the top 14%


            Comment


            • kkep
              kkep commented
              Editing a comment
              I guess more to the point is when we get action we are typically oop and we will often make 2nd and 3rd pair the further down the ranhe we go with our suited connectors. That said 76s is just outside of the GTO range so it's not a really loose hand. But to not play better combos too is what doesn't make sense. 98o was abad example but hands like KQo A9s K9s Q9s etc have to be in that range too.

            • kkep
              kkep commented
              Editing a comment
              I'm sorry but I disagree with the reversed implied odds statement. IMO If the player as shown that he is willing to bluff often then top pairs like KQ are far more valuable than low suited connectors. When we make small pairs we can easily be blown off of our hands...

            • JredA
              JredA commented
              Editing a comment
              kkep

              No need to be sorry....You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

              I obviously agree with the statement as it is not just a theory I came up with, but a theory that has been stated and re-stated by some of the top sites, minds, and coaches around for deep stacked cash game strategy. No offense, but I am going to take their side on this one. The ranges I use are a combo of the ranges provided by these sites, coaches I have had, books, other study materials and minds.

              Remember though, we are talking DEEP stacked here. So its not just about flopping a pair. We want hands with playability that allow us to make moves and be creative post flop (especially turns and rivers). Thats why suited connectors are so powerful in these spots and less powerful when stacks become shallow.

              Now as we drop shorter in stack sizes or if antes become involved, then yes KQo becomes a viable hand to open with from EP, but at a tough-full ring table, deep stacked no-ante cash game, you are going to run into a lot of trouble if you are constantly opening hands like ATo, AJo, and KQo from UTG.

              It's not like KQo is a snap fold, as it is often right on the cusp of opening from UTG. And 76s is also borderline. Most of the suggested charts I have studied go back and forth on KQo and often times 89s is the lowest suited connector recommended as far as UTG opening goes. A majority of minds and sites recommend folding KQo, and there are a few who recommend opening it. But KQo is always borderline. So I tend to open on weaker tables and fold on tough tables. KJo is always a fold though in this spot.

              FYI, Jonathan Little has KQo as a fold in his pre-flop chart for small stakes cash games and AQo is the worst offsuit card to open with.

              This is why you see GTO go with so many "mixed" strategies though. Opening some percentage of the time and folding others as there is no 100% correct way to go about it 100% of the time.
              Last edited by JredA; 09-09-2019, 11:29 AM.
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