Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Where does this tournament hand go wrong?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Where does this tournament hand go wrong?

    Hero (36K in chips) is around average stack about halfway through a MTT. Villain (young TAG player, roughly 65K to start the hand) has been relatively inactive and hasn't really opened/3-bet light.

    Blinds are 600/1200 with BB ante.

    Villain opens to 2700 UTG, Hero calls in CO with AdQc. BU, SB and BB fold.

    Pot (8400): Flop comes As6sAc. Villain bets 1700. Hero calls.

    Pot (11800): Turn 3d. Villain bets 6000. Hero considers a raise but instead elects to call.

    Pot (23800): River 2c. Villain bets 9000. Hero jams for remaining 25K.

    Villain goes into tank before declaring "if you have a boat, you have a boat" before calling off with 5h4h for a rivered straight.

    Is this just a cooler at these stack depths (30BB to start the hand) or is this river jam too thin? Should I have raised flop/turn instead of trying to trap in position against a player I assumed would barrel light? Is AQx a mandatory 3-bet pre IP even against a tight player? And was I foolish to discount 54s from Villain's UTG raising range?

  • #2
    This should have been a 3-bet pre-flop in my opinion.

    Post-flop this is probably a case of fancy play syndrome coming back to bite you.

    If this player is a TAG then there are lots of strong aces in his range that will pay you off. If he has AK then there's not a lot you can do about it. I'd be raising villain's flop bet and be looking to get all my chips in by the river.

    Comment


    • #3
      While I agree that AQo is usually a 3-bet from the CO here, at 30BB depth I understand the call. However, once you flop trips you should absolutely raise. Even if the Villain bet a standard size you should, but especially with this small sizing I think a raise here is mandatory. Make it 6k-9k. You probably want to raise on the higher end so a turn jam is a better sizing. You want to punish draws and get value from AX. Also, just picking up this pot is huge for a 30BB stack at this stage of the tournament so it doesn't really matter if they fold and you don't get max value. If you're called you'll jam any turn. You're 3 SPR on the flop and have trips, the money should be going in, not sure why you played it so passively.

      Comment


      • kkep
        kkep commented
        Editing a comment
        Sure we know what he had but realistically what draws does he have on that flop? I guess I could agree with 78s but that's it.
        I would have never seen 45s coming from an unknown or a player labeled a TAG. I may be having problems with defining
        those labels tho....

      • reeeeeeper
        reeeeeeper commented
        Editing a comment
        uh, spades?

        Also, that was only one aspect of why I think you should raise

      • kkep
        kkep commented
        Editing a comment
        For some reason I thought the spade draw got picked up on the turn

    • #4
      I think it's a cooler of sorts.

      What is he going to call a raise on the flop with? A2s -AKs AT+ is in his range (23 combos, 5 have us beat and we chop with 3),
      6's full (3 combos). All of those hands are going to keep pouring chips in and 1/3 of that range has us crushed.

      Maybe he C-bets with some under pairs, a lot of players do that but when you raise he almost has to fold and we don't want that.


      If he is opening 54s(not TIGHT in my mind) he may have about 15 FD combos that he picked up on the turn maybe even more.
      But I'm still just calling and I'm calling on the river with the top of our range and never raising all in.

      I will add that if he has been opening this wide from UTG I would be 3-betting this V often with a polarized range when it folds to us,
      and until I see him make an adjustment..I think cold calling AQo IP with 30BB is fine vs a more standardish UTG range.

      It's my sense that he didn't fear any of the players that had position on him or he just loves to splash around. Either way somebody
      needs to make him pay the price.

      EDIT I misread this - he does in fact have a FD on the flop, yet still only about 10% of a reasonable range. Now I think I like to put
      him all in on the turn.
      Last edited by kkep; 08-27-2019, 03:50 PM.

      Comment


      • #5
        Not sure I subscribe to that " keep him bluffing " line of thinking ... could be excuses for passivity .... if not , definitely could be exploited .

        And this is the perfect case in point ... AAx flop , why would u raise, right ? But if he bet again on river, bad news !

        worst play was the river raise ... i don't like 3bet pre ... maybe 3bet jam ... if u want to gamble it up

        flop raise ??? maybe on that turn, or just call down.
        Last edited by CrazyEddie; 08-27-2019, 01:36 PM.

        Comment


        • reeeeeeper
          reeeeeeper commented
          Editing a comment
          JL rarely recommends slow-play, I don't see why you would here.

      • #6
        Villain opens to 2700 UTG, Hero calls in CO with AdQc. BU, SB and BB fold.
        Given hero's stack size I think a call here is ok vs UTG which should have a very strong range. If hero raises and gets 4bet its a nasty spot.

        Pot (8400): Flop comes As6sAc. Villain bets 1700. Hero calls.
        On the flop vs such a small bet hero should definitely be raising. There's a flush draw on the board and villain could easily have a weaker ace. Hero is raising for protection and can get value from the weaker aces and possibly middle pairs. To answer OPs question I believe this is "where the hand went wrong."

        Pot (11800): Turn 3d. Villain bets 6000. Hero considers a raise but instead elects to call.
        Same story as the flop here. Hero should probably be jamming.

        Pot (23800): River 2c. Villain bets 9000. Hero jams for remaining 25K.
        At this point I don't see any merit in raising. Villain has fired 3 barrels OOP so unless he's a maniac (which you labeled him as a TAG who isnt getting out of line) he must have something decent. After hero calls 2 streets and jams river, is villain going to call off with AT, A9....etc?
        Last edited by MrFuss; 08-27-2019, 04:50 PM.

        Comment


        • #7
          For future reference, don't post the result until after responses. Posting results can really sway responses.

          I think you played this hand fine.

          The only time I would raise on this flop is if I KNEW the villain was a very bad player and was not capable of folding a worse Ax. Otherwise I am flatting my entire range here as I hardly ever am raising as a bluff on this flop. Villains downbet on this flop is standard on a paired A high board and he is probably c-betting his entire range. I don't want him to fold out his range here. You are leaving a lot of chips on the table doing so.

          Going with your initial read of a TAG villain, and assuming the table is 9 handed, the GTO opening range in this spot is around 12-14% of hands. With villain being tight, I would assume somewhere around 10% of hands. And a range that looks like this and consists of 130 combos:

          Click image for larger version  Name:	Screen Shot 2019-08-28 at 5.28.51 AM.png Views:	0 Size:	107.8 KB ID:	23435

          We are absolutely SMASHING this range on the flop. Raising allows him to play near perfect.

          Click image for larger version  Name:	Screen Shot 2019-08-28 at 5.35.03 AM.png Views:	0 Size:	31.6 KB ID:	23436

          Of these 130 combos, raising does not get called by much:

          There are roughly 9 combo's of Ax hands. 4 of which are ahead of us and 3 of which we are tied. Raising for value here is really targeting a small % of villains overall range.

          Of the 130 combos, there are only roughly 9 combo's of flush draws. So raising to "protect" here is also targeting an awfully small percentage of his range.

          With this villain being labeled as TAG, I prefer to keep him in the pot, keep our range wide and let him fire away on turns that help him pick up some small equity.

          If he checks the turn, we can size up and get money in the pot.

          On this specific turn card (3d), it basically does nothing for his range. We are still massive favorites and once again I would prefer to keep him in the pot with a call. Let him think we have a hand like a spade draw, a weak Ax, or middling pocket pair that might fold to a river bomb.

          If anything went wrong in this hand, it was your read on villain. He clearly is not tight and is opening much wider than a TAG. Just because someone does not open in a level or two does not make them tight, they could just be on a run of dead cards. Learn from that and move on.
          Last edited by JredA; 08-28-2019, 07:57 AM.

          Comment


          • reeeeeeper
            reeeeeeper commented
            Editing a comment
            Hmm, either I bluff too often, am losing a lot of value by scaring people off, or giving people too many suited Aces in their range. Or was too influenced by the results like you said, but it's hard to close Pandora's box. Thanks

        • #8
          Thank you very much for all the responses and your breakdown of V's range. fwiw I'd probably give V more like 14% as a TAG player UTG which maybe makes my decision to not raise turn worse I'm not sure.

          I've thought about this hand a lot and I suspect the problem lies in me trying to get a bit fancy against a player who I had on an overly specific range of Ax and 77-JJ. Also, completely agree that my read on V was probably wrong in this case and that it was probably more likely that he'd just been card dead for a level or two.

          Only thing I'd query is a few in this thread have said that there's little merit in jamming river on this runout. I personally can't get behind a river call given that:

          a) his riverbet is so small (37.5%) that it feels like a call would be letting him off the hook given the strength of our hand and the definite possibility that he has a worse Ax.

          b) If we call and lose at showdown we're left with just 13 bb. I know that's not paltry but it feels overly conservative to not jam with so little behind. I'd be willing to accept this is an overly simplistic thought process but at what point do we simply have to jam this river as played? 10BB behind? 8BB behind?

          Admittedly, I think both of these points sort of make this spot a slam-dunk turn jam but would be interested to see if anyone has any thoughts on my thought process.

          Comment


          • reeeeeeper
            reeeeeeper commented
            Editing a comment
            You need to ask yourself what you're getting called by. What worse AX would call? If you were targeting worse AX why wait for the river to raise? It's not a good river raise.

          • Joseph
            Joseph commented
            Editing a comment
            but at what point do we simply have to jam this river as played? 10BB behind? 8BB behind?

            Never. A chip and a chair.

          • kkep
            kkep commented
            Editing a comment
            Joseph if we started the hand with 20BB or less we should be 3-betting all in pre flop.

        • #9
          Originally posted by JredA View Post
          For future reference, don't post the result until after responses. Posting results can really sway responses.

          If anything went wrong in this hand, it was your read on villain. He clearly is not tight and is opening much wider than a TAG. Just because someone does not open in a level or two does not make them tight, they could just be on a run of dead cards. Learn from that and move on.
          Def agree with both of these statements.

          Comment


          • #10

            If this player is a TAG then there are lots of strong aces in his range that will pay you off. If he has AK then there's not a lot you can do about it. I'd be raising villain's flop bet and be looking to get all my chips in by the river.

            Comment

            Working...
            X