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3 Bet OOP

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  • 3 Bet OOP

    Blinds 300/600/600

    we were both over 100BB

    H BB

    MP opens for 1700
    H BB AcKc

    what size 3 Bet should we use?

    I played it like I might with a premium pair and bumped it up to 4400.

    I feel like that’s a good size but I got called down 3 streets by 55.

    Flop 8c9c9h 4d 2s

    I considered going all in on the river but thought there was a chance this guy actually had a 9x or 88 maybe even 89s so I held back 25BB and was obviously folding if he shipped it in over my bet.

    Nonetheless as as a played I thought I would have folded out at least everything worse than TT.

    I’m should mention we played a similar hand earlier. Same positions. I 3 bet pre, bet flop, bet turn the river went check check and we both had AK.

    So is it correct to 3 bet so small with AK trying to keep everything in pre or should I be sizing up to to try and fold out some small pairs and marginal hands.

    This hand killed me as 2 hands prior I lost 30BB when a LAG check raised me all in on the flop. I had AA he limped UTG with 9To called my raise pre ...

    Flop was JQ5 blank 8

    I wasn’t tilting at all. I had his stack sized up and would have got it in by the river anyway so it was just an unfortunate run out.

  • #2
    He's a calling station. Don't worry about it. He put you on a hand he could beat and hung on to the river. You should compliment him on his hand reading skills, and make a note not to triple barrel him in future, except for value.

    I would have chosen a bigger 3-bet size 6-6.5K, but to build the pot rather than to fold out small pairs.

    Maybe you should check/call the turn and check/fold the river against this type of player.


    • #3
      This deep and OOP, I am definitely betting larger with my entire range.

      I am going at LEAST 6k and most likely a full 4x.

      This still gives us playability post flop due to the deep stacks and will put more pressure on villains range pre flop. Assuming this is low stakes, most villains are very play happy early so build a pot and put pressure on their likely wide calling range.


      • kkep
        kkep commented
        Editing a comment
        So JL suggests 3.5x with effective stacks over 50BB.

      • JredA
        JredA commented
        Editing a comment
        I think 50bb -90bb this is fine, but once we start reaching 100bb I am playing like a cash game, in which case OOP raises are larger. The deeper we are the larger the raise OOP becomes to help compensate for the positional disadvantage.

    • #4
      People aren't thinking "oh he'd bet small with aces" people are thinking "oh he bet small I'll call." I would've bet bigger than you did IN position. Definitely betting way more out of position.

      Also, if you really thought he was weighted towards premiums why not just give up on the river?


      • #5
        I played the hand poorly post flop.

        Once I had a chance to look this over at home I saw how badly I over valued my hand vs the V’s range.

        I still like my pre-flop size tho.

        Do you continue if they 4-bet our 4x?

        They can do that with hands we can still out flop like TT-QQ some will do that with maybe TT+ AK and some bluffs. If they 4-bet our smaller bet sizing we can still (usually) take a flop for a reasonable price.

        I’m not trying to get 30BB pre-flop vs the only guy at the table that could stack me.


        • LondonImp
          LondonImp commented
          Editing a comment
          Does this mean you would be calling/5-betting purely a value range with no bluffs at all? Couldn't that lead to problems or does it not matter if it's not a regular opponent of yours?

        • kkep
          kkep commented
          Editing a comment
          I didn't say that at all. The fact of the matter is so few players at a live $300 buy in have a 4-bet bluffing range that I'm never 5 bet bluffing. I also never feel the need to get in some sort of leveling war.

          Depending on what I think of the V and how much the 4-bet is I might fold or call with about 40% of my bluffing range. Which in this case would be some suited connectors like 67,78 89

      • #6
        So let me make sure I understand how to correctly calculate 3 bets...

        In my mathematically challenged mind this is a 3.5x 3 bet here. UTG raises from 600 to 1100. 3.5 x 1100(raise) + (1500)pot (5350)

        I intentionally kept it on the smaller side to play a little pot control (closer to 3x) which may be a small error.
        Unless that formula is completely wrong in which case I made a huge error?

        JL teaches 3x IP 3.5x OOP. with these stack sizes.


        • reeeeeeper
          reeeeeeper commented
          Editing a comment
          Yeah so everyone else in thread is correct. 3.5x 1.7k = 5950

          4400 too small OOP, no legit raising hand would be making a mistake by calling IP there getting 2:1 on the call.
          Last edited by reeeeeeper; 07-19-2019, 02:45 AM.

        • JredA
          JredA commented
          Editing a comment
          To calculate a 3 bet you simply take the amount bet (by villain in this case which is 1.7k and multiply it by the amount you wish (3.5 it seems to be in your case).

          Your error is taking the amount that is raised over the bb. But you should be adding the bb into account.

      • #7
        I seem to remember it as: IP 3x opponents bet + Blinds and ante. OOP 3.5x opponents bet + Blinds and ante. In this hand 1700 x 3.5 = 5950 + 1500 = 7450.

        Matt Affleck said in 1 of his videos he uses 3-3.5x opponents bet IP and 4-4.5 OOP. I took that to mean just using the opponent's bet so that would be 1700 x 4 = 6800.
        At 4.5x = 7650.

        So you were a little light on your 3 bet. I am also using a round number if I don't mind a call, make it easy for the opponent to do the math. If he 4 bets, he is going to have to put a lot of chips in the middle, and we have AK so we are looking to get it all in as soon as we can.


        • kkep
          kkep commented
          Editing a comment
          ...I'm not looking to get 100BB in pre with AK but I definitely got to work on my 3-bet strategy

        • Rainmaker314
          Rainmaker314 commented
          Editing a comment
          Neither is your opponent unless he has aces or kings. If you made the 3 bet 7000, if he wants to 4 bet and does it right he is going to have to go 21,000 or higher and that would be a third of his stack. He should just push. I would expect a fold, or a call if he is sticky. If he does push, then you are in the drivers seat and get to decide if you want to play for stacks. On that flop with this hand, he checks, you c bet 7000 and he is out.