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Why am I performing that poorly wih A9o from BB ?

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  • Why am I performing that poorly wih A9o from BB ?

    looking at my database I realize that I am performing extremly poorly with A9o from the BB

    see photo 1 - 558 hands and minus 50 BB / 100

    compare it with my performance from SB plus 35bb/100

    compare 3 bet percentage : from sb: 12, from BB 17

    I just dont get it - how can I perfform that differently and so much worse although I am 3 betting more ?

    and the samplesize of over 500 hands each is significantly

    to analyze the leak I will post 3 losing hands

    perhaps together we can find holes in my A9o from BB game

    hand 1

    PokerStars: Tournament , $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVII (1000/2000) -
    6-max Seat #6 is the button
    Seat 1: SB (133396 in chips)
    Seat 2: Hero BB (43011 in chips) 22 BB
    Seat 3: UTG (87634 in chips) 44 BB, came new to table no reads
    Seat 4: (67767 in chips)
    Seat 5: (15126 in chips)
    Seat 6: (59641 in chips)
    ante 200
    small blind 1000
    big blind 2000

    *** HOLE CARDS ***

    Dealt to Hero BB [Ac 9h]
    UTG : raises 2000 to 4000
    Hero BB : calls 2000

    *** FLOP *** [2h Qc Kc] Potsize 10.200

    Hero BB : checks
    UTG bets 4000
    Hero BB : calls 4000

    *** TURN *** [2h Qc Kc] [5c] Potsize 18.200

    Hero BB : checks
    UTG checks

    *** RIVER *** [2h Qc Kc 5c] [6h]

    Hero BB : checks
    UTG: checks

    *** SHOW DOWN ***

    Hero BB : shows [Ac 9h] (high card Ace)
    UTG: shows [9c 9s] (a pair of Nines)

    Question : should I have bluffed (big) turn or river with the nut flush blocker ?

    hand 2
    PokerStars Hand #192511571396: Tournament
    9-max Seat #9 is the button
    Seat 1: (5047 in chips)
    Seat 2: Hero BB (2102 in chips) 26 BB
    Seat 3: (7410 in chips)
    Seat 4: (3200 in chips)
    Seat 5: UTG+2 Villian (1487 in chips) 57 hands , 33/29 player, 19 BB
    Seat 6: (5762 in chips)
    Seat 7: (9395 in chips)
    Seat 8: (5000 in chips)
    Seat 9: (4888 in chips)
    ante 10
    small blind 40
    big blind 80

    *** HOLE CARDS ***

    Dealt to Hero BB [9s Ah]
    folds - folds
    UTG+2 Villian raises 100 to 180
    folds - folds - folds - folds - folds
    Hero BB : calls 100

    *** FLOP *** [9d 6h Js] Potsize 490

    Hero BB : checks
    UTG+2 Villian : bets 162
    Hero BB : calls 162

    *** TURN *** [9d 6h Js] [3s] Potsize 814

    Hero BB : checks
    UTG+2 Villian bets 269 and has 866 left
    Hero BB : calls 269

    *** RIVER *** [9d 6h Js 3s] [4h] Potsize 1352

    Hero BB checks
    UTG+2 Villian: bets 866 and is all-in
    Hero BB : calls 866

    *** SHOW DOWN ***

    UTG+2 Villian [Jh Qd] (a pair of Jacks)
    Hero BB : shows [9s Ah] (a pair of Nines)

    hand 3

    PokerStars Hand : Tournament, $3.41+$3.41+$0.68 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50)
    6-max Seat #5 is the button
    Seat 1: Hero BB (5284 in chips, $5.11 bounty) 106 BB
    Seat 2: (2512 in chips, $3.41 bounty)
    Seat 3: (2077 in chips, $3.41 bounty)
    Seat 4: (3887 in chips, $3.41 bounty)
    Seat 5: Button Villian (3383 in chips, $3.41 bounty) no hands, no reads, 68 BB
    Seat 6: SB (4513 in chips, $3.41 bounty) is sitting out
    ante 6
    small blind 25
    big blind 50

    *** HOLE CARDS ***

    Dealt to Hero BB [9c As]

    folds - folds -folds
    Button Villian first in: raises 50 to 100
    SB Villian: calls 75
    Hero BB: calls 50

    *** FLOP *** [Ac 8c 9s] Potsize 336

    SB: checks
    Hero BB: donk bets 198
    Button Villian : calls 198
    SB folds

    *** TURN *** [Ac 8c 9s] [Jd] Turn 732
    Hero BB: bets 296
    Button Villian : raises 2783 to 3079 and is all-in
    Hero BB: calls 2783

    *** RIVER *** [Ac 8c 9s Jd] [8d]

    *** SHOW DOWN ***

    Hero BB shows [9c As] (two pair, Aces and Nines)
    Button Villian shows [Th 7d] (a straight, Seven to Jack)

    in order to compare:

    on photo 2 my performance with A9s (performance from BB much better, but why ? 3 bet also 17%)
    on photo 3 my performance with A8o (with this hand I am performing very bad from all positions)
    on photo 4 my performance with ATo (performance looks OK)

  • #2
    Hand 1 - Deffo need to bluff turn or river
    Hand 2 - Fold river (possibly even fold turn, short stacks don't tend to barrel turn without something)
    Hand 3 - Is a cooler, but I'd have probably c/r flop especially in a bounty. And v BTN open I'd have considered a 3bet (semi-bluff) preflop.


    • #3
      Hand 1 - right or wrong I dunno know but I would have probably played it the same way.
      If we bet turn (and for how much from our now 20BB stack)) and they call are we going
      to fire the river too? Are they ever folding a Q to 1 bet? I doubt it.

      Hand 2 - Yes I too fold to the turn bet vs a 2nd barrel from a short stack


      • #4
        I don't exactly know what everything on that chart means but I have a hunch you might be inflating some pots with hands that may play better OOP by just calling. I tend to call more from the BB and 3-bet or fold more from the SB. BUT since I play exclusively live poker I really have know way of knowing if that is working for me or not.


        • #5
          I have SEEN the gap between VPIP and PFR in A9o from BB is just too high

          I am probably flatting too much A9o from BB instead of folding or 3betting and then I probably play this Hand Too straightforwardly / passively


          • kkep
            kkep commented
            Editing a comment
            I don't think it fits in the 3-bet range. It's to good to play as a bluff and not good enough to raise for value. I do think it's a good hand to 3-bet when HU vs a late position open that we see is opening to wide tho.

            I'm curious as to what others think as my 3-bet strategy's are still in there infancy.
            Not that I don't value your opinions because I most certainly do

        • #6
          Your conclusion is my answer. Up your aggression if you are going to play it. The 1st hand you could have donk bet the flop. If villain just calls, you fire the turn and take it. If he raises your donk, check the math and decide. Hand 2 was a fold on the river, you called with middle pair, see Alex Fitzgerald's lesson on that. Hand 3 cooler. Another thing that sticks out to me, you showed the 2 hands and are playing against UTG and UTG+2, look at your database if you are losing the most against early position raises, might want to 3 bet or fold. Against EP, I would lean towards fold. Check this out totally free.


          • Guido
            Guido commented
            Editing a comment
            hand 1 this board favours the preflop raisers range pretty significantly , but otherwise if I decide to float 4000 oop I can also take the lead and betting 4000

            yeah hand 2 is a mess , it was on the river a pot odds call, but when he goes allin what am I beating , so I really dont like my call here

            hand 3 I am wondering whether I can get away after the reraise allin

            thx for the link I will check it, as I am an audible customer I have downloaded the audiobook : )
            Last edited by Guido; 07-01-2019, 02:02 PM.

        • #7
          I have tracked how I perform with A9o when 3 betting (new photo 1) in comparism to when cold calling (new photo 2)

          see my BB winrate 3 betting with A9o 326 BB / 100 samplesize 42 hands
          see my BB winrate cold calling with A9o MINUS 1,2 BB samplesize 112

          although those samplesizes are not that high it is a clear tendency

          and in comparism to only live players those samplesizes are huge


          • Rainmaker314
            Rainmaker314 commented
            Editing a comment
            In conclusion, from the BB A9 off is a 3 bet or fold hand. If you are 3 betting it, it is a 3 bet bluff. From the link, A9 off is the worst hand in pot limit/No Limit hold em.

        • #8
          Since it's such a small sample maybe we can look at a few more hands in a group from the BB. Say A8o A9o K9o K8s K7s Q9o
          I think they all would have a similar amount of equity....
          Last edited by kkep; 07-01-2019, 05:16 PM.


          • #9
            What does it mean ? From the link, A9 off is the worst hand in pot limit/No Limit hold em


            • kkep
              kkep commented
              Editing a comment
              I don't play PLO but reeeper was refer to this article

            • Rainmaker314
              Rainmaker314 commented
              Editing a comment
              It means you can't make a straight with A9 off. The line between A9 and AT is huge. The pros know this instinctively, GTO also shows this, if you have pio run it. I believe it is going to show A9 off as a call 50% a raise 25%, a fold 50%. GTO is the starting point. We need to adjust based on our opponent from that starting point. Vs an EP raise A9 off is a fold.

          • #10
            I couldn't post all of these links in one reply for some reason?

            Some similar hands

   scored max


            • Guido
              Guido commented
              Editing a comment
              Thx this is really a good idea

          • #11


            • #12


              • #13


                • #14
         36 points


                  • #15
           6 points pre flop, 36 points overall


                    • #16
                      Rainmaker314 you mean 25% fold, 25% call and 50 % fold right ?


                      • Rainmaker314
                        Rainmaker314 commented
                        Editing a comment
                        25% Call, 25% Raise, 50% Fold

                    • #17
                      The money quiz with a good explanation why not to 3-bet a hand like A9 from the BB.


                      • #18
                        Haha going over an old hand playing A9o from the BB that sent me from a commanding chip lead with $5500 up top to a 5th place finish.

                        I had recently come back from break (6 handed) with 55BB. One guy had 30BB, the other 4 were between 9 - 18BB. I never won another hand.

                        Prior to this hand I've already been nicked a few times.

                        I honestly never consider ICM and never studied ICM.

                        So with ICM considerations is this still the correct call?

                        Borgata Blog Entry Feb 2018

                        $100 + $20 Deep Stack NLH (Re-Entry)
                        $15,000 Guaranteed
                        Level 27: 30,000/60,000/5,000 Ante
                        Players Remaining: 5 of 204


                        • #19
                          You Seem to really like writing about A9o

                          when he pushes 10 BB you have to Call, vs button allin range even if you lose you habe 28 BB left? 2nd chipleader is a good Position
                          Last edited by Guido; 07-03-2019, 08:38 AM.


                          • #20
                            i have for fun compared kkeps hands A8o A9o K9o K8s Q9o as 3 bet and as cold call , the result is awesome

                            see picture 1 3 bet preflop

                            see picture 2 cold call preflop

                            i forgot k7s but i think it dont matter

                            I am not convinced this is a good experiment with that exact hand groups but ok , I did it for kkep and for the record : )


                            • kkep
                              kkep commented
                              Editing a comment
                              So you crushed it 3-betting correct? So much for GTO lol

                          • #21
                            Yeah I crushed it 3 betting . AF has a much bigger Database, but he comstantly says 3 bets makes More Profit, this is valid for all Hand groups