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I hate calling All In with anything

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  • I hate calling All In with anything

    Busto hand in the Colossus.

    Early day 2. ITM: Payouts flat til 45 players by a difference of hundreds of dollars. My plan was to play a little looser and more aggressive. Fatigue was a factor. 3 days of 12 hour poker caused a mental fog. Not sure if I made a mistake here.

    Stack 355
    Hand AKo
    Blinds 10k/5k/10k big. Blind ante

    Younger pan Asian male opens UTG2 standard 25k
    2 flats to me. I raise to 65k
    folds to raiser 3bets to 200k

    I give him QQ with AA, AK, KK possible but blocked.

    What's the right move?


  • #2
    With only 35 BB facing an Open raiser and two callers with Ako I am allin

    AF wrote an article that in live poker with Ak you can even push 32 BB vs 1 Single raiser ! And here you get also 2 overcallers. So you can jam with 35 BB.

    with ak i dont want to raise to 65 k here getting perhaps callers and miss the Flop

    As played I am going for the kill with Ak blocking AA, AK, KK . already itm makes it easier but I would also play it this way nowhere near the Money with 35 BB
    Last edited by Guido; 06-29-2019, 09:11 PM.


    • #3
      EDIT: Wait, woah woah woah, ignore everything below, new post incoming, I totally neglected the flatters!

      New thoughts:
      You 3-bet wayyyy too small. With a 25k raise and 2 flats a pot sized 3-bet is 150k. I could see raising to 105k maybe, but 65k is not good at all (sorry to be harsh). You're never getting any folds here and will just play a bloated multiway pot or be put in an awkward position. Since even a 105k raise is almost 1/3 of your stack, just jam. Don't give any of them the illusion of fold equity. If you run into it you run into it. If you pick up the dead money already in the pot you increase your stack by more than 20%, that's HUGE! I suggest looking at your 3-bet sizing game if this is something you're doing often when there's a raise and callers.


      EDIT: Leaving in my initial post which would have been my thoughts if there weren't flatters.

      Did you have a plan for what you'd do if he raised prior to 3-betting? Do you have even a little bit of info on the opponent other than ethnicity? Stack size?

      He raised a size where you shouldn't expect him to fold if you jam and are committed if you call. Either he's really strong or trying to look really strong depending on the level he's thinking at (or part of his range he holds this particular time, it could be his standard play at this depth).

      Your dream case scenario is a total bluff he'll fold (3% chance?), but let's discount that. So then he has 6 QQ, 3 KK, 3 AA, & 9 AK. So 2/7 flip, 1/7 30%, 1/7 dead, 3/7 chop. You have slight weight from pot odds of dead money in the pot, but it's negated by this being for your survival IMO.

      But this is not his 4-bet range if he has a lot bigger stack than you or is a strong player. If you throw in any other hands (JJ, TT, AQs, A5s bluff, etc) this is a jam for sure. Since it's the Colossus he might just be a rec though, in which case you'd be in the dead camp. That's why I asked up front for that other info. I could easily fold this to a rec kid I've never seen 4-bet. I would never fold this to an aggressive kid in a flatbrim. I'd be unlikely to fold if he had a huge stack and seemed like he was just trying to apply pressure.

      In general, IMO this is a jam ITM with flat payouts for a long time and your stated goals. I could see folding, but only under certain conditions.
      Last edited by reeeeeeper; 06-29-2019, 09:03 PM.


      • Guido
        Guido commented
        Editing a comment
        Agree Bobs 3 bet sizing is a no Go

    • #4
      This is the article of AF

      Over the last three years, I’ve been lucky if I could make five live tournaments in any given 12 months. That’s what happens when a family member has health issues, you go through a divorce, and you make an international move. Money becomes a little bit more important to you, so you stay at home and work more.

      Thankfully, in the past three years I’ve run extraordinarily well live. Despite not being able to play more than 20 tournaments, I’ve final tabled two (one being a World Poker Tour event), and have cashed in PCA side events, WSOP Main Events, and two other WPT Main Events.

      Let’s get one thing straight: A large part of this run is me simply running well. I’ve been playing too long not to know that. I could have just as easily not cashed in a single tournament for three years.

      However, I recently decided to stop thinking about just that factor. My day job is teaching people how to play poker. I wouldn’t be doing that job properly if I wasn’t studying my cash streak. If there’s one edge I can hand to my pupils then I have to find it.

      One glaring difference I noticed between my play and my students had to deal with how I played 24-32 big blind stacks.

      Let me ask you a question:

      Let’s say you have AKo with 31 big blinds. You are in the lojack. UTG+2 opens to 2.5X. It’s folded to you. What do you do?

      A large number of pros, including myself, will just jam there.

      However, many of my students will opt for one of two options.

      Both of which I hate.

      Many of them will just call. This does open up the exciting opportunity to jam over someone who squeezes later, but that can often lead to coinflip situations and tournament exits.

      What happens most of the time is my students call, then two other people call behind them. They miss the board 60% of the time, piss and moan, and accept their shortened stack.

      What happens when they flop a pair? Well, sometimes, admittedly, they win a big pot versus an inferior pair. But many times, they piss and moan because somebody hits a set or two pair on them.

      I don’t know how you can whine about something you allowed to happen, but I digress…

      The other option they do is a small threebet. They go to 5.5X or 6.5X here.

      I hate this option because if you do a Flopzilla calculation and put 6-4s as your opponent’s hand, you’ll notice they have the odds to call you.

      If you do a Cardrunners EV calc and put a hand like 6-4s in there, and have the player calling versus you and getting it in on any board they hit, you’ll notice they’re actually not playing bad! They’re losing less money than if they folded.

      And the guy doesn’t just have 6-high. Often, he has hands that flop much better. Or he has pairs that he can call with, see a safe flop, and check/jam the flop with.

      This is a disaster when you’re at 30 big blinds. Most people continuation bet almost always when they threebet, so if they get jammed on with a flop raise, then they’ve pretty much bet themselves down to 20X.

      20X is a much worse stack to play than 30X. There’s far less tools in that stack.

      You want more chips, because the key tool then is that NO ONE CALLS YOUR REJAMS when you jam 25-32X.

      No one jams this stack enough. In every one of my deep live runs, I repeatedly put the money in with these stacks, and I’d be flabbergasted by what people fold face up.

      The amazing thing was if I jammed people would show me 8-8 and fold. That is amazing.

      AKo on average makes about 2.5 big binds. Three big blinds if you’re great with the hand. With a shortstack and inopportune position, it’s worse than that.

      If you shove on one of these frequent live openers, who is opening down to 7-4s and K-2s, then he’s folding most of the time, and you’re netting five big blinds with the blinds and antes.

      You get two of these rejams through and you get 10 big blinds. That’s an extra life in tournaments. I’ve won countless tournaments coming back from 10 big blinds.

      If you get called, it’s not the worst thing in the world either. Your hand does fine against most calling ranges.

      But picking up 500 big blinds per 100 hands with zero variance is what you’re really aiming for.

      Stack retention is a big deal in poker tournaments. It doesn’t matter how many chips you have when you get into a moneyed tournament finish. It just matters that you have chips.

      If you want to stick around in tournaments for a longer period of time, I’d recommend brushing up on your 25X+ jamming ranges. This can be done easily with Hold’em Resources, Cardrunners EV, and ICMizer 2.

      Good luck to all of you.
      Last edited by Guido; 06-29-2019, 09:12 PM.


      • #5
        With something on the order of 26BB, with or without the flatters, this would have been an easy jam, come what may. Given your stack size and the two players in for the ride, I like shoving as the low variance move. As reeeeper mentioned, any time you have the chance to add 20 per cent without fight in these crucial stages is a gold mine (I expect both callers to fold, especially if opener calls). If you run into a monster, nothing you can do about it.


        • #6
          I like jamming after a raise and two callers and will jam this almost always. is it a good jam against just one player, I don't know.
          If we jam over a raiser with 30 bbs, I think villain can take AA and KK out of our range. Or am I wrong here. Anyone here jamming AA or KK in this spot?


          • reeeeeeper
            reeeeeeper commented
            Editing a comment
            30BB I dunno. I squeeze jammed KK with 18BB in a live tournament on Friday and got both callers though (one had 66, I forget the other), so...

        • #7
          I agree the 3 bet was too small. But, when initial raiser comes over the top it may actually help you get away. Whether to call or not has to be influenced by your read on the initial raiser, 4 bettor. I think the deciding factor is what you think of initial raiser.


          • #8
            As played, the fact that this guy here opted to 4-bet without going all in is a bit concerning, he is practically begging you to 5-bet jam, smells like AA to me. So I might(probably) have actually found a nitty fold.

            I was in almost this identical spot yesterday and opted to jam about 28BB. UTG open call call H on the Bu jams AKs. The main difference is we were still about 50 players from the money. I actually got called by a LAG with a big stack that had flatted the open raise, .he was running so good

            He flipped over A8o hit his 8 on the flop but I got baled out by a K on the river.

            I must have been stemming bc I said that's what you get for calling with that garbage lol
            Sometimes I just can't keep my trap shut. He was actually a nice young guy that just liked to splash around and play a lot of hands so I was definitely out of line.

            I hate it when I embarrass myself like that.

            killtown I think it's the flatters that make the jam most attractive, lots of dead chips. If it folds to me in late position I likely make a minish 3-bet to about 60k to block the blinds from defending to wide and go to a flop or call off to a 4-bet jam.

            Something else I have to ask which seems to be confusing me. Are not the blinds the 1st bet, an open raise the 2nd bet and the next raise the 3-bet so forth and so on?


            • reeeeeeper
              reeeeeeper commented
              Editing a comment
              We all have done it before. I once had a rec gambler say "Ok, I gamble" & call all-in with QJs when I jammed JJ and he hit a Q. I was steamed and said in a mocking voice "ok I gamble" and instantly felt the table go tense quiet judgment on me for mocking the fish. I felt pretty embarrassed and shamed but I lost a little control in the moment. My only excuse is that it was near the bubble in a big event and I had fought hard to build that stack. I min cashed and that guy final tabled to rub it in too. I feel like I deserved it for that comment, and I probably put the fire in him to show all us uptight serious guys up.

              And yes, open raise is 2-bet, re-raise is 3-bet, opener or someone else coming back over is 4-bet. It comes from Limit Holdem originally.

          • #9
            The problem here is the awkward stack size, multi callers and EP raise with respect to risking the stack to aggregate chips to manage a 4000 player pool. This smallish bet is a size I use into mulit flatters due to card removal and not knowing how many and how sticky these players are. If they all call, I know my aces and kings may not show on late streets, I can assess OTF if I want to cbet/jam or check.

            Agreed it's not an optimal size, but going the correct size as advised by JL, I build a 3 SPR pot, it's better to just open jam and buy 5 cards. Given the stack sizes, villains range and opener, this seems spewtastic.
            Last edited by XBobLove; 06-30-2019, 10:46 AM.


            • #10
              Nobody mentioned anything about history with the players .... what went down prior to this hand ... etc etc as if it is a math problem to be worked out. Is it that simple ??

              what is everyone's respective stack sizes ??


              • #11
                This is a great observation. I intentionally omitted this info for simplicity sake. In thsi tournament a billion people are trying to min cash. I (correctly) guessed I could fold down to 1400 players and gain 100 bucks woo hoo. This would leave me with a small stack problem.

                At the table the BB was the monster stack. Easy million in chips. Me, villain and 2 others all had 300k orso. The rest were 200k or less. This did figure into my thinking at the table.

                ​​​​​​My day 2 table broke early, no reads, I didn't have an orbit to gain info save for one player from the night before who was a good REG 2 behind me.
                Last edited by XBobLove; 06-30-2019, 11:08 AM.


                • kkep
                  kkep commented
                  Editing a comment
                  So what did he show up with?

              • #12
                He showed up with pocket KK


                • kkep
                  kkep commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Yeah that fits.

                  I would tend to call rather than 4-bet KK, then bet 75% pot on most flops without
                  an A. Only reason why I call there with KK is I don't think your folding AK and
                  maybe not AQs. If you have AA your likely getting my chips either way.

                  Also a 4 bet might fold hands like JJ and QQ that I can get more value from on a lot of flops.

                  With your hand we both get stacked but by taking different lines.

                  Nice run in a monster field.

              • #13
                Yup, nice run... what’s funny is that in the Big 50 on Day 3, I was on exactly the other side... 20bb utg with KK... raise and big stack (European Pro) shoves with even more... probably 40+bb with AKo and this time he was the one who caught one of last two As in deck...

                Good run... you were going broke there one way or the other... but, as you say, fatigue IS a thing... I’ll bet you would have shoved there Pre in most other occasions