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Pushing strategies bounty mtts

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  • Guido
    started a topic Pushing strategies bounty mtts

    Pushing strategies bounty mtts

    Say in both scenarios you have 15 BB left

    When you are first in in sb and you have a big bounty but the BB covers you

    do you jam tighter than in a freezeout because you expect villian to call More often than in a freezeout?

    What if you are in utg, you have the biggest bounty of the whole table but the lowest Chip stack , do you jam with Hands that will make Top pairs often (Ax, Broadways, high pairs, suited high cards) rather than small Pocket pairs and small to Medium suited Connectors?
    Last edited by Guido; 06-25-2019, 07:43 AM.

  • BruceO
    commented on 's reply
    So, for a given chip stack size, the bounty means that you have LESS fold equity...and that applies to all actions including not just all-ins, but also all standard openings. So, How do you regain that lost equity?

    A: Either raise / open larger with the same hands OR open/raise tighter...

    You are both correct... kkep said it correctly... if you have 6 fewer effective BB, then T 16BB, you are in push / fold mode just as you would be normally at 10... by that point, it’s too late to open/raise tighter

  • BruceO
    commented on 's reply
    Yes, that is the absolute value... and that’s why relative value changes (shrinks) as tournament progresses and stack sizes grow. But that’s also why, for someone making a big stack early, they can afford to play / take a risk to earn the bounty. The bounty is ultimately part of prize pool, so it’s value has to be considered relative to your likelihood of earning the other prizes

  • kkep
    commented on 's reply
    It's a catch 22. When I shove 16BB they see the $100 bounty. If they understand how that works the bounty is worth 25000 chips. So they can Think of it like this from their point of view they need to call 16BB to win in this case 22.25BB.

    Now think of it like this from my point of view. My fold equity is reduced by 6.25BB so instead of deciding what the optimal shoving range is for 16BB I need to figure out what it is for 10BB to have the equivalent fold equity. It's not as much about my actually holdings but what percentage of hands will fold to my bet, They bounty reduces my fold equity by 6.25BB (about 40%). Am I way off here?

  • Guido
    commented on 's reply
    I really dont like the allin with 16 BB with Qc4c, if you were more disciplined you would have folded that or raise-fold , with 14 BB you still have almost the same fold equity as with 16 BB , Qc4c is not even in the push app a push

  • Guido
    commented on 's reply
    no I think when you have a juicy bounty and a short stack you can expect people to call you off wider, thats why you need to be prepared for , in order to be prepared you need a stronger range in order to have a better chance of doubling up, in order to double up we need usually hands that can make top pairs (Ax, Broadways, high pairs, suited high cards)

    does that makes sense ?

  • kkep
    replied
    I can't come up with a good answer. I mix it up a lot and tonight I found myself doing something I wouldn't normally do.
    Black Chip Bounty ($100) $100 Buy in This game is super soft but in some ways its harder too.

    This particular tournament seems to draw a lot of players from other near by rooms that quite frankly are behind the curve.

    Most of the players at my tables today started out opening 3x-5x with some occasional larger opens @200BB deep. That's fine.
    The problem is they never change it up. As the tournament runs on (we get shallow rather quickly) and the stacks get to be
    50BB, 30BB and where I shove 25BB on average they are still opening 4x on average.

    For most of the night I couldn't get involved much without being to splashy. I was getting a lot of marginal hands like say ATo
    KJo KQo small pairs etc. If I was to open from UTG -UTG3 with those I'm almost always going to pick up several callers or get
    raised and their 3-bets were huge too, 5x the open + was the standard.

    I did get KK one time UTG and opened to 2.1x By this point most of the players noticed I was playing super tight. All but one that
    is lol. It mucked to the BB who tanked, ask to see my chip stack which was (18BB more) and he then shoved on me (he had about 40BB)
    with 89o. I ended up with K's over Q;s and was really sad noone else got involved, ugh.

    So other than that my strategy for most of the night was to stay out of the way and play whatever hands I could open with from late
    position aggressively along with mixing in a squeeze or 2 from the button.

    Several levels later we are down to 34 players. Nothing has changed. Guys sitting with 25-30BB are opening 4x full ring from UTG
    with hands like TJo and I've just been card dead orbit after orbit.

    Folds to me on the Button, WHAT, I look down at Qc4c with 16BB. Normally that's a snap fold for me but last night it was an easy shove.
    My thoughts were that if I go 1 more orbit without making a hand I will have almost 0 fold equity at this table with 'only' 14BB's and a bounty
    chip to be had.

    BTW at 16BB my bounty chip was worth an additional 6.25 blinds. $100 Buy in + $100 bounty 25000 starting stack BB 4000. (25000/4000) 6.25

    So I *think* that means the callers should essentially be calling as if I had 10BB?

    Anyway the small blind woke up with AK and I was out. I did collect 1 bounty so not a complete loss.

    My point is that grinding a short stack has way to many variables IMO to come up with a stock answer. Even more so in a bounty tournament.
    Had we been in the money, closer to the bubble (18 out) or the table dynamic was different I wouldn't have played that hand last night.

    Ultimately you raised a great question. I *think* we have to jam wider not looser if the opponents understand the value of the bounty chip.
    In other words when we jam our fold equity is decreased by the value of the bounty which reduces our fold equity but increases the callers
    over all equity.

    Is that correct?

    Leave a comment:


  • kkep
    commented on 's reply
    The bounty chip has a clear value. Say the bounty is $100 you are playing a $100 buy in and start with 10,000 chips. The bounty is then worth 10,000 chips. If the bounty was $25 it is then worth 2500 chips.

  • Guido
    replied
    Bubble already busted a while ago , Final 4 tables

    Leave a comment:


  • BruceO
    replied
    As always, it depends on your assumptions... But in most cases, kkep is correct, bounty value is typically not enough that it shouldn't affect your decision-making

    And relative value of BOUNTY decreases as you get closer to FT and the money available there... i.e. is it worthwhile to risk your stack to win a bounty if it decreases your likelihood to get to the bubble, or get from 4 tables to FT? Probably not. Is it worthwhile to try to win a bounty early in tournament, before it would affect FT? Yes, it adds a couple of points of value.

    I think that your basic thinking is correct...but it depends on where you are in the tournament and size of stacks you're playing against... in spots where you don't want a call, like button raises, you have to tighten up a tiny bit (e.g. 10% on the push/fold calculator) since the bounty value is usually enough to justify what would otherwise be a marginal call.

    If you're playing a hand against a VERY LARGE stack who won't be affected meaningfully by losing to you, you have to be even tighter. Would a short(ish) stack, who has you covered, be more likely to call? Yes, but only in a spot that was marginal already.

    Leave a comment:


  • kkep
    commented on 's reply
    Where is the bubble?

  • Guido
    replied
    Say we are Final 4 tables, 9 handed , I am the shortstack of the table , say other players have

    Utg1 25 BB
    lojack 31 BB
    hijack 16 BB
    cutoff 37 BB
    button 85 BB
    Sb Hero 15 BB
    BB villian 31 BB

    I have also won 2 bounty mtt online playing my freezeout strategy

    But recently when I was deep I had almost no bounties , I was almost always the bounty shortstack by a Big Margin

    they Need to be played differently, thats why I am at the moment studying how to play them

    (My main study topic is playing from the blinds As this is my weakest part)

    Leave a comment:


  • kkep
    replied
    This is really hard to answer in a vacuum. First of all I don't play any differently in a bounty tournament.
    My goal is to reach the FT, then get to 3 then to win. The bounties will come as they may. I have reached
    FT in a good sized field, close to 200 people without collecting a single bounty. The very next week in the
    same game I reached the FT with 11 bounties. Most often when I make a deep run, close to the money or
    a minish cash I probably collect 2-3 on average.

    I do understand many of the players in bounty tournaments over value collecting a bounty chip. However
    I'm still playing how I know best. So if they want to call off a bit wider good for me!

    Anyway I feel like our stack size is relative to the chips in play at our table. Do we have 15BB 6 handed
    at a FT table that is playing shallow or deep? Are we in the early stages, mid point or approaching
    bubble play?

    I think don't think this question can't be answered intelligently as posed.

    Leave a comment:

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