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Facing big 3-bet on flop with 2 pair in limped pot

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  • Facing big 3-bet on flop with 2 pair in limped pot

    $150 live tournament. Level 2 Blinds 100/200 with 200 bb ante.
    Stacks around 20.000 chips. No info on any of the players.

    I'm the small blind with Ah5s

    UTG+2 limps
    MP limps
    BT limps
    I limp
    BB checks

    Pot 1200 chips
    Flop Ac Th 5c

    UTG+2 bets 600
    MP calls
    BT folds
    I raise to 2400
    BB folds
    UTG+2 raises to 8600
    MP folds


    This is the first time ever I had the clock called on me, cause I just couldn't figure out what to do here.

    What would you guys do in this spot?

  • #2
    This is a similar setup to a quiz Evan Jarvis just did. There are 11 hands that beat you AA (1 combo), TT (3 combos), 55 (1 combo), AT (6 combos). Villian could be on a broadway club draw (7 combos most include a gutshot straight draw), or overvaluing AK (8 combos) or AQ (8 combos). The villian may conceivably be on low suited club cards, like 89c, 78c. Anyway my plan would be to call and then check call down on safe runouts.

    Also on a limped pot I would be betting this flop instead of checking it.

    Comment


    • K2P2
      K2P2 commented
      Editing a comment
      I had a hard time putting all those hands in his range since he open-limped.
      I was looking to check-raise, wich actually happened, but never thought I would be 3-bet that huge.

    • RealJPB
      RealJPB commented
      Editing a comment
      In a live tournament I don't think you can discount him open limping any of those hands. Just because he SHOULDN'T be open limping them, doesn't mean he isn't.

  • #3
    Super easy fold , he has for sure At, Aa, 55,tt

    Comment


    • #4
      Two options for me. Neither involve folding.

      I think there's merit in calling with the intention of calling any non club on the turn. Keeps opponent's bluffs and overvalues in.

      I also think there's merit in just jamming now. In a $150 live tournament some guys will still call off AK and will definitely still call off their club draws, but they might slow down if they miss.

      I'd lean towards option 1 if I hadn't played with the guy before.

      Comment


      • #5
        Pre-flop I just fold.

        You have a hand that does not play well in multi-way pots. You know nothing about your opponents. You are dominated by almost all the other Ax hands that are limping and since you are not suited you are basically hoping for 2 pair, trip 5's or a rare straight. Even when you flop 2 pair (as this hand shows) you can be put in tough spots since you are always OOP.

        In a limped pot I am taking the initiative and leading here OTF. I want to build a pot when I am ahead and I want to protect against flush and straight draws.

        If you have been there since the start I am surprised you have not seen this player enter or play a hand yet. Is this his first open limp? Has he raised at all previously? Even these small pieces of info provide pieces to help put the puzzle together. Even general info about the player helps. Is he an old man, young kid with a hoodie and sunglasses, middle aged male in business clothes, etc, etc. All of these clues are vital when playing live to help you narrow even the smallest bit of information to help you come to a decision.

        Perhaps the villain or hero just sat down and since we have nothing as far as info goes, villain could have anything from AT, AJ, AQ, 55, A5, or even T5 that they are doing this for value. I have seen players at these levels open limp pretty much anything in the early stages to see a flop. I have also seen them grossly over play TP with a decent kicker when draws are present on the board.

        There are both straight (KJo, QJo) and flush draws available along with combo draws such as KcJc or QcJc that they may decide to play aggressively.

        Since we know nothing about villain and this is the early stages of a low buy in tournament, I am not folding yet.

        Bottom line is that we are in a $150 tournament and are 4-bet on the flop which is extremely rare and a sign of real strength. The question is what does this player consider to be strength. Since we have 0 reads, I think its too early to give up.

        I peel the raise and see what develops on the turn. Another large bet and I more than likely fold.



        Last edited by JredA; 06-20-2019, 10:43 AM.

        Comment


        • reeeeeeper
          reeeeeeper commented
          Editing a comment
          I really like it all except I'm not sure about the last paragraph. If you're planning to fold the turn then you probably just fold the flop. You're letting him keep the lead with all his semi-bluffs, so if you call the flop you should call the turn IMO targeting that portion of his range and the occasional AK/AQ that thinks you're on the draw. The main problem is that even though you're ahead of this portion, you don't really know which cards help him since there are multiple draws and might still put in a lot of flop money only to make an incorrect fold on the turn. A paired T is obviously bad, as are clubs, but if a K, Q or J falls it's unclear. So I don't mind the fold, I understand it, I just think you might as well fold flop then. In game, I think I would take a call flop call blank turn line, but I mostly play rebuys so going out this early isn't a complete disaster and chipping up is a big benefit.

        • JredA
          JredA commented
          Editing a comment
          I can definitely see the arguments for folding flop. But i'm not folding to the flop raise because of the decent chance we might be ahead. We know nothing about villain and he did limp in pre, so it's very plausible we are ahead of a decent portion of villains value range.

          If we call flop, and check turn, I would not be surprised to see the turn go check/check often w/ a large portion of villains range - depending on the exact card of course. At which point we can re-evaluate with more information.

          If the turn is a club do you think villain rips in a hand like AT when it looks like we have a draw of some kind? Even a set of 5's might check back here.

          Remember, villain also has to be worried about us having one of several draws we mentioned as well as AT, 55, etc. So those cards you mention might scare him as well allowing us to get to showdown more often.

          If villain is willing to bomb the turn (an all in will most likely be the turn bet) with bluffs when a blank hits, then good for him and its a nice play. But I want to see a turn and see what he does to gather some more info. We can also pick up any live tells in the process.

          If we end up folding turn, we would still have a 60bb stack and plenty of room to play moving forward.
          Last edited by JredA; 06-20-2019, 01:10 PM.

        • reeeeeeper
          reeeeeeper commented
          Editing a comment
          That's fair, thanks for the explanation. I still need to work on my "he might have bluffed, good for him!" instead of my oft "he might have bluffed, call!" I say I'm about 50/50 call/fold on those when I should think more about counting bluff combos vs value combos and the risk involved. Then again, I do use live reads as well I'm determining which 50% to do, I just sometimes get reversed. Anyway, always good reading your thought process, so thanks again.

      • #6
        When we are this deep I think we need to have a raise fold strategy from the SB.

        Here I see 5 dead BB's. A5o is a fine hand to squeeze with.

        I would raise to about 1700 and just take it down PF a high percentage of the time. Even sweeter, when
        we get 1 call, c-bet and win another large portion of the time for an even bigger profit.

        I think folding is better than calling pre-flop. What are you trying to flop, a wheel, 55x AAx or maybe A5x see my point?

        We can never love our A when it hits and the pot is getting bet up. Here we hit aces up and leaked 15BBs before we had to give it up.

        Comment


        • reeeeeeper
          reeeeeeper commented
          Editing a comment
          Not a fan of OOP multiway squeezes. IP, sure.
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