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Difficult decision 2

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  • Difficult decision 2

    From memory

    Me sb 30 bb KQo raise 3x
    villian BB 18 BB pushes

    villian shoved on my Steal try last Orbit

    Itm bubble already begun, say 21 got paid 26 still in

    to this Time I was probably 5/26

    what are you doing here ?

  • #2
    Call... get the Push-Fold app...


    • #3
      You cannot use the App here automatically ,remember I raised and he 3 bet pushed

      also icm plays a role


      • #4
        Because of ICM you should be open shoving on him here not raise calling or raise folding. It's very important to be the last aggressor in ICM spots. At this stack depth bvb that means open shoving - he then has to make the decision for his tournament life, and his Ax offsuit wont be looking so pretty when he has to decide whether or not to call off with it.


        • #5
          I dont Open shove More than 15 BB, you Need to set yourself a Limit

          what if villian instead of 18 BB had also 30 BB ?would you still Open shoving ?


          • Turbulence
            Turbulence commented
            Editing a comment
            Yes I would!
            Often in poker there is not a one size fits all solution and the sizing we choose will be different for different situations. If this were purely a chipEV spot much earlier in the tournament then raise calling off would probably be a correct play, certainly not a bad play.

            However, if this is not an immediate pay jump spot that will reduce the ICM implications a little. If this were the money bubble or the FT bubble I am 100% only open shoving this hand in this spot with these stacks.

            I don't have enough data here to run it through HRC but I am reasonably confident that KQo is a profitable open shove in ICM, but will shrink dramatically to about break even or even a fold in a raise call-off scenario.

        • #6
          Wow 30 BB Open shoving, this could be a leak honestly

          when something is +ev it might Not be the best Option anyway . for instance Open shoving 100 BB with AA is +EV but certainly not most +ev

          JL said in a Training video my biggest online Tournament Cash on fultilt when moorman As 2nd chipleader 3 handed Open shoves into 2 People with 44 with 30 BB this is a blunder

          ok he surely meant in the first case Because of the shortstack present it is a blunder Risking going broke before shortstack (payout implications)

          but if I remember correctly he also said in General it is way Too deepstacked to first in Open push 30 BB

          you get only called from a range that crushes KQo
          Last edited by Guido; 06-09-2019, 08:57 AM.


          • Turbulence
            Turbulence commented
            Editing a comment
            But we are not 30bb open shoving as there is only one opponent who has 18bb - so we are effectively shoving 18bbs. The effective stack is which ever is the shortest, therefore that is the maximum number of bbs we are playing for.

        • #7
          1) I don't like the 3x open here. With these stacks, I think I prefer a limp/shove strategy with this hand.

          2) ICM factor here is not incredibly high. Most people over estimate ICM when this far from bubble. And added the fact that you can never go broke on this hand. It would be higher if you were the one with 18BBs, but you are not the one at risk of going broke here, he is.

          3) You have to call 15BBs to win 22BBs. 1.46:1 pot odds. So you need 41% equity for a break even call here. Typically this would require you to go a little more than the standard extra 5% edge due to the slightly increased ICM. So a minimum of 46% equity is required. You would like a tad bit more if possible.

          4) He should be shoving wide expecting tons of fold equity.

          SB 51.03% { KQo }
          BB 48.97% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }

          5) If he is shoving almost ATC here (possibility)

          SB 58.88% { KQo }
          BB 41.12% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T5s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 53s+, 42s+, 32s, A2o+, K2o+, Q2o+, J7o+, T7o+, 96o+, 85o+, 75o+, 65o }

          6) However, the worst case scenario is:

          SB 47.12% { KQo }
          BB 52.88% { 22+, A2s+, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, ATo+, KJo+, QJo }


          • #8
            5/26 I was in a good Position and folded to that jam


            • #9
              I would also prefer limping or open shoving ... but since you raised and got jammed on ... folding is my 3rd favorite ... but maybe calling isn't that bad either

              I suppose at some point, raise folding could become the worst option...
              Last edited by CrazyEddie; 06-10-2019, 12:20 PM.


              • #10
                Turbulence but you answered before you would also Open shoving with 30 BB effectively


                • Turbulence
                  Turbulence commented
                  Editing a comment
                  3 bet shoving not open shoving - but that is in a completely different scenario eg from the blinds against a late position opener.

                  Each situation is different. If I'm on the CO with +30bbs and the BTN, SB & BB all have less than 12bbs then I will open shove most of my range as there is not much in my range that I will be raise / folding to 12bb shove.
                  Last edited by Turbulence; 06-10-2019, 06:47 PM.