Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

HH

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • HH

    Green Chip Bounty :$25 $85 $15 $25buy in.
    Level 2 50/100 20 minute levels 20k starting stack
    we are deep now but by level 7 or so the average stack is 30BB

    I would like to go through this hand one street at a time as I was unsure of the correct play on all 3 streets.

    H Stack 320BB V 180

    MP 1 limps
    MP 2 limps
    H SB AsAc bets 500
    call
    call

    F TsTcQc
    H?

    Ok so I did C-bet 800
    MP1 folds
    MP 2 calls I would classify him as a LAG, splashy player who had also donk led vs me on a previous hand.

    T Js
    H? - I think JJ said his piece.

    H bets 1500 - I thought about betting bigger (2400 or so) but I didn't want to keep piling chips in OOP, lets call it pot control which I know isn't taught here. If the board wasn't paired I certainly go for the bigger bet size to charge all the draws.
    V calls

    R 3d
    H?
    Last edited by kkep; 06-04-2019, 12:28 PM.

  • #2
    What do you mean by: "$25 $85 $15 $25buy in." ?

    Deepstacked, with an overpair on a high, paired board against two limp callers...

    I would probably be betting 600-800 here into the 1,650 pot.

    [EDIT: Turn info now in OP]

    Our hand is straddling that awkward position of being part premium, part marginal, and part strong draw.

    Having not faced any aggression so far, I would still be playing this for the premium value.

    I would c-bet 1,800-2,000 into the pot of 3,650.

    Just for the fun of it I'll guess the next action - I'm guessing we get a call, the river is a brick, we check to our opponent and then face a very large bet.
    Last edited by LondonImp; 06-04-2019, 10:25 AM.

    Comment


    • kkep
      kkep commented
      Editing a comment
      $25 bounty and the tournament price was $85 + $15 fee sorry for the confusion.

  • #3
    I would think c-betting this flop is the standard play by the GTO bots.

    Comment


    • #4
      Bet 1/2 or 3/4 pot. Or check hope 1 of them bets and check/raise the size of the pot. I am going to say 90% of the time, I'm betting. If I know 1 of them is aggressive, then I'd go with the check/raise. If I don't know anything about them, I am leading out.

      Comment


      • jjpregler
        jjpregler commented
        Editing a comment
        I don't really like straying from standard plays very often.

        1) If the flop checks through that is a bad result for you.

        2) When you are playing weaker players deception and deviation is not really needed to beat that game.

        3) You may end up leveling yourself. Imagine the c/r line and he flats. Now I am more unsure about where I am, even on blank turns. What if the 9h hits the turn? How do you play it? Can you keep barreling now that you over played your value on the flop?

      • Rainmaker314
        Rainmaker314 commented
        Editing a comment
        He calls flop bet, okay. C'mon ace, 1 time. Nope Js on the turn. Dammit, wait I have AA. 2nd bullet going in 1/2 pot. Either I am still ahead or I am dead. I am not giving him a free card though.

      • Rainmaker314
        Rainmaker314 commented
        Editing a comment
        And the river is a brick. Nice, Now do I want to go for value or try and get him to bluff. Most of the time I would bet about 40% pot. If he pushes I throw up a little. Usually I call and say GG, sometimes it's me leaving, sometimes it's them leaving. The times I try and induce a bluff, the bluff turns out to be an all in and is not a bluff at all. I have been knocked out many times by that line. It has not been good to me, may just be that I remember the bad more then the good. So I lean towards just making the value bet on the river, most of the time they just call and I take down the pot. I have folded AA more since joining PC, hate to do it but when they are screaming at me that they beat AA, I am learning to listen.

    • #5
      Originally posted by kkep
      I thought about check/calling, going into bluff catcher mode, ugh. I really hated this spot multi-way.
      I would tend to play this hand as a value hand on the flop. C-bet and evaluate the action. If they raise, your hand is a bluff catcher. You can only call down if they are capable of bluffing draws in a multi-way pot.

      If 2 players call, I might downgrade this to a marginal made hand on the turn.

      But until they show me otherwise, I will assume for now it is premium made.

      Comment


      • kkep
        kkep commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm trying to work this down tp the river without giving away what happened. Although I was a bit unsure on the F T I didn't mind my actions. It's 5th street that bothered me after the hand.

      • jjpregler
        jjpregler commented
        Editing a comment
        A quick way to assess at the table whether this is marginal made or premium is to run through the hands that would continue to a bet. If you beat more hands than those that beat you, it is probably premium made.

        Here I can see FD's, OESD's, top pairs, middle pairs (maybe all one pair hands) continuing.

        The hands that you are behind are TX hands. QQ does not limp preflop, so that is not even part of anyone's range. So this clearly has more hands you beat than hands that beat you.

        Now this is a flop assessment. You have to be flexible in your own assessment of your hand strength as the hand plays on.

        What was the action on the flop? What was the turn card? Is my hand still a premium made hand?

        Remember the definition of a value hand is any hand that when it bets, 50%+1 of the hands your opponent continues with is worse than your hand. Now in MTTs, I back off a little at the edges. I might go to about 55%+1 of the hands my opponent will continue with is worse.

    • #6
      Small point but assuming this is live AF would certainly advocate for betting bigger with your whole raising range pre, especially since you’re out of position. 700-1000 is pretty sweet with your bluffs because you just pick it up sometimes and pretty sweet with Aces because one of the two probably still calls you a bunch.

      Comment


      • jjpregler
        jjpregler commented
        Editing a comment
        Yeah, Jonathan says the opposite about sizing here. Multi-way he says to go a bit smaller.

      • RealJPB
        RealJPB commented
        Editing a comment
        Jonathan is obviously correct about what the optimal strategy should be. I was just sharing how Alex would recommend exploiting players in a $100 live tournament.

      • kkep
        kkep commented
        Editing a comment
        Real - I did consider going a bit higher in real time. Eve JL says it's usually OK to go a bit higher when deep early in tournaments. Raising from the SB already sends a strong enough signal tho IMO. And as I said I didn't want to chase either of them out

    • #7
      Pre: Good
      Flop: Good, c-bet somewhere between 40-60%
      Turn: Have to keep betting since all the backdoor draws came in, same size 40-60%. If he raises that's a tough spot.
      River: Check to induce a bluff from all the missed draws, call any less than pot-size bet.

      Comment


      • #8
        OK so this went check check.

        So I did end up turning my AA into a bluff catcher on the river. I left value you on the table as the V showed me a Q. The reason why I didn't just
        lay this all out is because I'm not trying to be results orientated. Was this a spot for 3 streets or not? Especially in a tournament that gets shallow
        rather quickly?

        Crazy thing is I seem to have to problem bluffing scary run outs but my balls tighten up when I have a decent hand.

        Comment


        • #9

          Tournaments do get shallow rather quickly ... I'm all for looking ahead ... ( whereas others might be content on preserving their stack )

          Against a lag / splashy, I think you have a good chance of getting paid... should have gone for 3 streets.

          ( if for no other reason than holding Ac )


          Last but not least ... what u mean by " your balls tighten up " ??? You mean you have trouble bluffing on scare card when you have decent show down value ?


          Another topic worth exploring : If he did have a T ... at what point , would he spring into action ? ( by that , I mean the latest )
          Last edited by CrazyEddie; 06-06-2019, 01:02 PM.

          Comment


          • kkep
            kkep commented
            Editing a comment
            No, I have trouble deciding when to go for value on scary boards. I don't any problem bluffing...dumb, right?

          • CrazyEddie
            CrazyEddie commented
            Editing a comment
            merge ? would u say that is in the moment decision making or anticipation ?

        • #10
          This quiz is a great example of where I leave value behind. I wasn't worried about the K at all but I was
          wondering what I was getting called down with. Maybe it's the stakes/rooms I play in but I'm losing to a
          bunch of 2 pair hands here and sometimes that straight. I played the flop and turn right along with JL
          but checked behind on the river where he squeezed out another 12BB or so.
          https://floattheturn.com/pokercoaching/quiz.php?q=20

          Comment


          • #11
            It would always be a good practice to run your ranges through the range analyzer while trying to maintain the proper ratios and see what that information that provides you.

            My preflop range may look something like this:



            I don't want to have any bluffing ranges from the SB in a multi-way pot.

            On the flop:



            This is a value heavy range, therefore, GTO would indicate that a smaller bet is a better choice for this range.

            EDIT - ATs should be a premium made. Dropping our draws down by 2 more combos.

            Turn:

            Your range is so nut heavy here and you have relatively few good draws to choose from. This is what I came up with:



            And since our hands deviate here, I don't think there is any reason to look at the river.

            This board gets so wet and nut heavy, that I'm ok with a pot control line here with 1 pairs. Just because he happened to have one of the combos where it may have worked out with a bet/bet/bet line, that is just resulting the hand instead of developing the ranges as they should be developed.

            Comment


            • jjpregler
              jjpregler commented
              Editing a comment
              Notice that on a dryer, or lower card board, wehre one pairs are the top of your range, you should be betting. But here, one pair hands are actually pretty weak compared to the top of your range, and you have a relatively decent amount of hands above 1 pair hands, you can move them down.
          Working...
          X