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Shortstack flatting from BB and then Open shoving or Check raising flop

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  • Shortstack flatting from BB and then Open shoving or Check raising flop

    I am sometimes flatting to small raises 2.0x to 2.3x as the BB when I have 7-9/10 BB effectively and if hit any piece or at least 4 outs draw i am Open shoving Flop or Check raise shoving flop

    depending on the board, Position of Open raiser and the default ranges and how they hit Boards (at least I try to)

    Turbulence recently wrote something like if he Hits top pair (perhaps even midlde pair) he check shoves when Hands started with 20 BB effectively

    should I extend this move up to 20 BB ? Not only playing like this when I have 7-9/10 BB?

  • #2
    I will say that if I was the big stack in these scenarios I'm rarely betting the flop.

    Whats the point? I'm opening to get all of the short stacks chips, not just blinds
    and antes.

    I'm opening with a strong range, because I'm expecting the short stack to jam
    with a wide range.

    Of course there are always some exceptions. I may have opened with say 66.
    If the flop comes out all low cards like 945 I will bet the flop for protection and
    happily get it in when c/r.

    I only need 1 street maybe 2 to get all the chips in.

    If I missed the flop I don't want to risk getting c/r off of my strong unmade hand
    while also giving the short stack the opportunity to bluff the turn vs my made
    hands.

    Comment


    • Guido
      Guido commented
      Editing a comment
      You obviously misunderstand the question/point, you are writing about a Complete different topic

    • kkep
      kkep commented
      Editing a comment
      I don't think I did

      What I am asking myself is how the big stack might play this spot. If they aren't C-Betting the flop with their entire range why should we, the short stack get all of our chips in with a donk lead or check raise with 2nd pair or worse? It seems like a classic spot to be trapped.
      Last edited by kkep; 06-03-2019, 08:28 AM.

    • CrazyEddie
      CrazyEddie commented
      Editing a comment
      like how u think

  • #3
    This is a strategy I picked up from another well known training site, and was initially very sceptical about, but have been using it now for several months to very good effect. Don't get me wrong, I go broke sometimes but not nearly as often as I thought I would, more than 50% of the time I get folds and pick up a nice pot, when called I'm winning a decent % of the time (haven't worked out how to get my DB to show these results precisely) - but again its more frequently than I expected. So overall has been a profitable strategy and been a part of my overall reduction in losses from the BB from -38/100 to -18/100 or an NET 20bb/100 gain - which is huge!

    Comment


    • #4
      No. This play is called the stop and go. It is useful when your stack is not large enough to 3 bet and get fold equity. If your stack is large enough to get fold equity the stop and go is no longer a valid play.

      But you also have to be careful that you are not overusing this play. Don't use this play when your hand rates to be best preflop if you shove. Just use it for the middling type hands that might not be the best, but are too good to fold.

      Comment


      • Turbulence
        Turbulence commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm very familiar with "stop'n'go" but that's not exactly what I have been referring to. More when defending the BB when short eg <20bbs when you hit a piece of the flop check shoving. Whether that be any pair, or any draw. Naturally there is a little more to it than that but not much. This is specifically for HU pots in MTTs.

        Basically we are trying to maximise our equity whilst denying our opponent theirs.

        Example:-
        We defend v a min raise with K6ss with 18bbs effective
        Flop 2cAs6h (5bbs pot)
        Opponent cbets 1.6bbs
        We check / shove over for remaining

      • jjpregler
        jjpregler commented
        Editing a comment
        Guido's play that he described is the stop and go and he was asking if he can do that 20BBs deep. I know yours was different, that is why I said he cannot do the stop and go 20 BBs deep.

    • #5
      I almost did this last night. A very straightforward TAG older gent was C-betting a ton, probably close to 85-90% with hands
      he open raised (he was also limping a ton). But he was getting smashed with the deck the entire freakin night.

      I took a flop from the BB vs his MP open. flop was 459 I had 46s BDFD BDSD It went check/bet/fold then I said I almost c/r
      all in with a pair because I don't see how that board hits you. He shows JJ. The reason why I considered a c/r was because
      at this point the V had a monster stack so I thought he might be changing his game up some, leaning on shorter stacks.

      I don't like this move at all vs players that don't put chips in post flop without a hand/obvious draws or vs players that play
      better than the average bad reg.

      I think it can and probably is effective vs mindless players that still C-bet HU nearly 100% with their entire range but that's it.

      Welcome back JJ,
      I hope all is well with you

      Comment


      • Turbulence
        Turbulence commented
        Editing a comment
        It's more of an online play but in the right situations as you say- it should work live.
        Online 90% of players are cbet ing HU v BB 80+% of the time, if they wake up with something well we have at least 20% / 5 outs to get there, if not on to the next. When your multi-tabling its not the end of the world if it doesn't work out, but it has worked out way for the better way more than I expected it to.

    • #6
      Originally posted by kkep View Post

      Welcome back JJ,
      I hope all is well with you
      Thanks. Tons of work and family commitments have burned me out for a couple weeks.

      Comment


      • #7
        To be honest I still dont Know Whether I can Develop a +ev strategy and Whether it is valid to call with 11-20 BB in order to Check shove or Open shove any Flop I hit with at least 4 outs / More outs

        no matter how you call it (for instance Stop & go)

        For instance say I have 14 BB and I have JdTh in the BB and the unknown hijack who covers me minraises , I clearly dont want to 3 bet shove , say I call and flop comes

        Ts 4d 7c

        do I just check call down ?

        or Open shove ?

        or Check raise shove ?

        Comment


        • Turbulence
          Turbulence commented
          Editing a comment
          In this example I would go 1 of 2 ways, you can 3 bet shove and have fold equity with these type of hands (although I'd prefer that with the suited varity for when we do get called)

          I would go for a check shove If I defended. If a K or A comes on the turn and you check called flop, and villian fires again what then?
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