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  • 25/15 player?

    what is these figures mean? refers to the villain? how do you figure them out? help..

  • #2
    A 25/15 player refers to VPIP/ PFR. Or Voluntary Put Money in the Pot / Pre Flop Raise. These are percentages in how many hands the person has played. Using a hud online is how to figure it out. Live you would have to remember just how a person plays. You also need a very large sample set to get accurate percentages.

    I hope this helps. There may be a better explanation from a more experienced player.

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    • #3
      Just will add if you see something like 25/15/3 then the last number is 3-bet%, how often they re-raise an open raise when they have the opportunity to do so.

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      • #4
        i think i have the picture, VPIP? so if he played 25 hands per hour i would be agg vs VPIP 5 hands he would be a tighter player? is that the idea?
        and if he did the PFR pre flop the higher the percentage would indicate he was a calling station?agg?weak?or what? this applies to opponents strength/range?
        thanks so much to learn, I'll try this method to see what happens.
        also i think it takes 24hrs to be eligible in JLs home game or get # from JL?

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        • #5
          VPIP and PFR values are all percentages, not a count per hour.

          If opponent 1 has a VPIP of 25, then that means they voluntarily put money in the pot 25% of the time, or 25 times out of every 100 hands.

          If opponent 2 has a VPIP of 10, then that means they voluntarily put money in the pot 10% of the time, or 10 times out of every 100 hands.

          What this means is that player 2 plays far fewer hands and so it is safe to assume he is playing with a tighter range i.e. folding a lot of the weaker hands that player 1 would be playing with.


          Now if opponent 1 has a PFR of 5, then that means they are raising with their hands 5% of the time, or 5 times out of every 100 hands. So now we know they play 25% of hands (VPIP) but only raise with 5% of them - this means that 20% of hands they play are either limping or calling. This is generally going to be a weaker, pre-flop calling station.

          If opponent 2 has a PFR of 8%, then that means they are raising with their hands 8% of the time, or 8 times out of every 100 hands. So we know they play 10% of hands (VPIP) and 8% of which are raises - this leaves only 2% of hands limped/called. This player is tight because of their low VPIP, but aggressive because their PFR is high in proportion to their VPIP.

          Generally we would describe opponent 1 as loose-passive and opponent 2 as tight-aggressive (or TAG)

          I hope this helps.

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          • #6
            yess thanks now i'll have to put to practice, this forum is awesome!

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            • #7
              to much to handle in a live MTT keeping track to much for my brain to retain? i'll try it out when i'm on line MTT. thanks

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              • jjpregler
                jjpregler commented
                Editing a comment
                You have to practice this in live games. This is how I keep track of players.

                But there is a short cut. Just keep the raw count of hands they enter and hands they raise pre. In a live game with competent dealers, you play about 30 hands per hour. So after one hour, multiply their total hands by 3 and that will give you an estimated VPIP/PFR for each player.

                After 2 hours, multiply by 1.5 and round up.

                After 3 hours, that is their estimated VPIP/PFR.

                For instance, I am playing with a guy on my left. He entered 7 pots in the first hour and raised 4 of them. I would estimate his VPIP/PFR to be 21/12 at that point.

            • #8
              It's also a crude barometer of range. He's playing some odd 25% of hands.

              This is why the volume of hands makes a difference is you only have a sample of 200 hands he could be playing much wider than top 25%. If you have 10,000 hands, the number firms up.

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              • #9
                What Bob is referring to is variance and standard deviation. For accuracy in statistics, you attempt to use the range of numbers in 2 standard deviations. That gives about 95% accuracy.

                With a player who has a 25% VPIP this is how his range may look over a sample size. If we accept about 18% to be the mean score we would have the following:

                After a hand sample of 30 hands: His VPIP range is from 13% - 40% as 2 standard deviations with only a 30 hand sample.

                If we increase the hand sample to 100 hands: His VPIP range is from 19% - 31% at 2 standard deviations. We are getting closer, but that is still a large spread of numbers.

                Now if we increase his sample size to 1000 hands, here is his 2SD range: 23% - 27%. So now after 1000 hands we can confidently say he is loose.

                So when using statistics alone as your guide, you need large samples.

                Now if we played 100 hands live with him and were actively watching the play, the hands he shows down can be an indicator to give more value to a read than the statistics would allow. For instance, if after 100 hands he only shows down solid hands, then we have to base our read only on only the statistics and the range of possibilities. He may just be getting a good run of a cards.

                However, if after 100 hands we see a couple times where he showed down hands that were just junk based on the action, we can give more credence to our loose read than the statistics will allow. Because once we see some hands that help verify a loose read we can add Bayes Theorem to the mix and calculate a higher degree of certainty.

                With tight players it is harder to verify the tightness as you rarely get to see the hands they choose to fold. You would never see a tight player fold a hand he should be playing, but you are likely to see a loose player show down a hand he should have folded.

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                • #10
                  From Poker Tracker

                  VPIP-
                  Percentage of the time that a player voluntarily contributed money to the pot, given that he had a chance to do so.
                  Formula: Number of Times Player Put Money In Pot / (Number of Hands - Number of Walks)

                  PFR-
                  Percentage of the time that a player put in any raise preflop, given that he had a chance to do so.
                  Formula: Number of Times Player Raised Pre
                  Last edited by MOUSE85; 06-16-2019, 12:17 AM.

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