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Playing against nut flush blocker

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  • Playing against nut flush blocker

    It's 1-2 no limit Holden. UTG straddles for 5$. I limp from UTG+1 with KhTh with the intention of calling a raise. Cutoff calls, big blind calls, UTG (loose aggressive) makes it 30. I call. Everyone else folds. Flop comes Ac6hQh. He bets 40, I call. Turn comes 2s, he checks, I bet 70, he yells "pot control, pot control" and calls. River is 2h. He goes all in for 700$ into 291$ pot. I have him covered by 100$. He was a little maniacal, but I thought there was a method to his madness. I fold my K high flush. He shows Ah8s.

    Afterthought, I could've checked the turn and called the river, Or maybe check the turn, bet the river. But he probably would've pushed in any case. So what do you do in a situation like this?

  • #2
    Don't limp call, especially from EP, just raise. The hand is sort of hard to analyze past that because we can't really say what your range is/should be, because you shouldn't have a limp calling range.

    As played, on the turn, do we have value hands? If we do then the flush draw is a fine bet on the turn, but it's worth asking what value we would have here. It's hard to find any premium hands we would have in this situation, maybe some AX for marginal top pair, but part of the issue with limp calling, you are playing a very capped range.

    Don't fold the second nut flush. If we gave Villain every single combo of boats and nut flushes, he has 17 combos that beat us, so he needs 12 combos of hands that we beat for us to profitably call. And IME, live 1/2 LAG players are rarely check calling turn with sets or AhXx. If we assume he can have the nut flushes but not the boats and quads, we need ~5 combos we beat. We're also near the top of our range, just call. His line makes no sense honestly, and on the one hand it's tough to find bluffs that makes sense, on the other hand he could do something dumb like he did.

    Brad Wilson makes a good point about trying to understand weak players bluffs, sometimes it's better to just focus on how frequently they need to be bluffing and not try to get there by considering the combos they bluff, because the bad players are going to use illogical combos often. And 90% of live 1/2 players are bad.

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    • #3
      Dilly

      Thanks for that response. It makes sense now. He probably would've kept betting if he had top pair and nut flush draw, or any A2. I just don't often see people losing their marbles and shoving their entire stack into a paired board like that unless they really have something good. But you're right, and I do need to stop limp calling. I limp shove UTG sometimes with a monster if I'm short stacked on a loose table and occasionally I would limp call with a monster when deep stacked trying to trap. But it's probably better to just raise. I like that you mentioned combo figures. I have seen some explanation about that in the Jonathan Little - Cash Game Masterclass, but I do not think I understand them completely. Is there any book or tutorial that you can suggest that explains it in detail? Thanks again!
      Last edited by jdel; 09-13-2021, 03:12 PM.

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      • Dilly
        Dilly commented
        Editing a comment
        There's a few videos on Pokercoaching that go over counting combos, and it's definitely in the Masterclasses, and the book Mastering Small Stakes. But it's basically quantifying the range we're putting the opponent on. Combo is basically synonymous with hand, so we're saying how many hands in Villain's range are a flush, how many are top pair, how many are a busted draw that might bluff, etc. So in this example, and in any example facing a bet on the the river, we need to know how often we're going to be good when we call, we do that by counting how many combos in Villain's range we beat, and how many we lose to. Then we compare that to the pot odds and make the decision.

        Also I wouldn't feel bad about the fold. Your read on population at live 1/2 is very good, I think when we see a huge bet like that it's value almost always and adjusting by tightening up a ton is very valid (plus we respond very tight to large bets in general.) This is just a spot where 1. He clearly is on the wild side so we need to call more often and 2. It's hard for him to have a better hand because many combos are blocked and because he took a line that usually removes a lot of the hands that beat us from Villain's range.

        Probably worth mentioning, a good player will definitely be checking some AXhh especially weakest AXhh on the turn, but it's just my experience live players and rec players loveeee betting and raising with combo draws and pairs with draws

    • #4
      1, hindsight one thing you did good was the limp call. you want to get to those rivers with this type. why you want to mess it up for a smaller pot preflop?

      2, this player isn't a lag. If you call him here, they usually have another gear.

      Last edited by broke&livin; 09-13-2021, 01:12 PM.

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      • #5
        I eliminated open-limping from my game a few months after I started playing, except when I accidentally do it UTG thinking I am the BB.

        I could consider checking back the turn with the combination draw if I am afraid that the LAG will check-raise.

        On the river, call it off. He is not likely to pot control with 2-pair or a set on a board with lots of straight and flush draws but no made straights or flushes possible, which he would need in order to have a boat or quads. The only thing I would worry about is the ace-high flush, and I am not sure he would jam that if the board paired.

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        • broke&livin
          broke&livin commented
          Editing a comment
          against you, clearly should check turn to over bet jam river because you would pay.

        • mriebel
          mriebel commented
          Editing a comment
          In whose position?
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