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Raising the Back Door and I Think It's Good!

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  • Raising the Back Door and I Think It's Good!

    Live 1/2 @ Borgata

    H Ah9h S 200 P BB
    HJ 7, B and We call
    Jc7c8h (24-3 rake)
    HJ 10, B fold, we 35
    2h (94-5 rake)
    We 45 HJ call
    Ad (184-5 rake)
    HJ Mucks

    Raising the flop, my thought was call with club draws, we have the sets except JJ all the 2 pairs and the straight, so we need to be raising some draws, BDFD BDSD seems to fit the bill, and I had just sat down so admittedly I wanted to establish my image as someone who is going to battle for pots. Range analyzer seems to confirm the raise as good:

    This looks pretty sweet, we're defending above MDF, and we' applying good pressure. When I turn my flush draw I assume I'm supposed to keep barrelling but I think that might have been a slight error. If I barrel Ad9d my range is probably:

    Not terrible, admittedly I actually probably over bluff and continue betting 96s here as well, our checking range is shot, but he's unlikely to apply pressure after we XR...but I like this better:

    Just as good when we bet, wayyy stronger when we check, although admittedly we're in a tough spot on the river when we check call and don't get there....and if he bets big on the turn we may be over-folding as well. But let's look at the river with the range we used, going to bring 96s back into it because I'm definitely still barrelling that in game:

    Starting effective stack was 200 so we have 138 left to bet into the 179 pot, we can have ~30% bluffs which we got here. Also intuitively, what's his range? Slowplayed nut hands, strong JX, and club need to value bet our weakish AX here. We're over-folding here when we check but it's not the worst problem to have I suppose.

    Villain looked very frustrated when I turned up my hand, and said "what a river." Then proceeded to whisper to the guy next to him every time I bet or raised for the next few hours lol. I guess he probably had KJ QJ JT? Can't be sure though.

    All in all think I played this pretty well, any thoughts?

  • #2
    You don't need to worry about playing balanced at low stakes, play exploitative and take advantage of tendencies that is all. You x/r with A high and a gutshot.....That is going to make max fold equity I think you want to keep the pot small and actually see a turn card here you have a decent hand, I don't see a reason why we need to inflate the pot OOP and turn your hand into a bluff versus an uncapped range, what would you have done if he shoves the flop?. Your playing at a level where villains are not looking that far into your range they are playing they're hands. You caught a river that actually gave you the best hand villains reaction sums it up well, you caught your ace, showing that hand just painted a fish emoji on your forehead for an image.

    Villain on the flop can have anything dude, he can have AA-77, AJ,KJs,QJs,JTs,J9s,J8s,T9s,Axcc,87s. He can hold all the hands you think your range holds too except for more...he doesn't have to 3-bet you on the flop to have nutted hands.


    • 1Peter510
      1Peter510 commented
      Editing a comment
      You realize you are contradicting everything the coaches teach on here?

  • #3
    I disagree pretty strongly with all your points. We don’t have to be balanced at 1/2 but the exploit is to bluff more not less, opponents fold wayyyy too often to check raises.

    If I hadn’t caught my A on the river, we’re all in for 138 and villain is folding a lot of their range, admittedly we wish we could at least bet pot river, but still we’re going to get a lot of folds on the river and we’re playing all of our 2P+ this way.

    The results of this session show why I don’t care if this “paints me as a fish.” If I look like a maniac fish it’s fine because 1. 1/2 players don’t do anything about it, it should lead to them calling down way wider...most just don’t, and when they do we just adjust. And 2. Were also playing nut hands this way, on the river well still always have more nuts than bluffs so again, that’s fine.

    if villain slow plays then nuts, we lose the hand, make note of it, adjust and move on , it’s 100BB , no big deal lol.

    Only check raising strong hands because it’s 1/2 is a huge leak in my opinion. You can make wayyyy more at 1/2 with a LAG strategy than nut peddling.


    • Dilly
      Dilly commented
      Editing a comment
      The Cash Game Masterclass, Mastering Small Stakes No Limit Hold Em, the homework webinars, the quizzes....all of the content indicates that OOP with the nut advantage and range disavantage, we should either be calling with our entire continuing range, or check raising infrequently with our best hands and our worst draws, calling with our marginal hands and strong draws getting the right price.

      The reason I didn't just call with my entire continuing range here is because are then over-folding based on MDF, which admittedly might not be the worst thing in the world at these stakes.

    • Zeldafan55
      Zeldafan55 commented
      Editing a comment
      Why don’t you think villain can hold sets here? Also think when you rivered the ace you could have possibly value bet the river idk how much stacks are left too lazy to do the math but if your both not committed you can value bet the river and possibly fold to a raise since you think he has no sets , His top pair hands you might be able to extract value from
      Last edited by Zeldafan55; 02-14-2020, 11:19 AM.

    • Dilly
      Dilly commented
      Editing a comment
      Betting the river isn't terrible, I just don't know that we're going to get looked up by much worse but yeah it's viable.

      We never know for sure what Villain's range is, but bet call raise on the flop, check call turn, check call river is not a usual line for a set, especially with all those draws out there. He definitely can be slow playing sets, but I'm not going to assume that as standard, and if and when we do run into sets in this situation, we just make mental note of it, and adjust our strategy against that opponent moving forward.

  • #4
    I’ve already explained the logic behind the strategy, including diagrams, if you disagree that’s okay. Good luck in your games!


    • #5
      I would include some suited club hands in my draws.

      I wouldn't include 22-66 as marginal, those are unlikely to improve so can't really check call.

      I have 12 combos of T9o in my range so would need more bluffs anyway. Might include some of the 22-66 as bluffs.

      I think turning a flush draw with your gutter is prime to keep barrelling. Having some suited club hands in your flop check raise range will also allow you to check some heart flush draws.

      I actually would tend to bet my A9 for value on the river. Small stakes doesn't raise enough and if he raises probably has 2 pair+. Plus, they don't fold pairs. I doubt he floated with AK, AQ, AT (maybe AT). He called you check raise and turn bet, so likely has a J and would call a bet or a draw that folds no matter what.

      That said, stack sizes are a little weird, so maybe bet $40 on the turn so you can bet $45 with your ace on the river? That allows you to escalate the bet amount each street (less insulting) but not be committed on the river. Also sets up closer to a pot size shove on the river. I know this is unbalanced, but doing it as an exploit. I would be jamming my nuts and bluffs and getting a little more value from my top pairs which are likely good here. Might even go so far as to bet $45 with my nuts and top pairs and just jam my bluffs. To do that, I would need to see something telling me this guy folds a pair though. Otherwise jamming nuts and bluffs 2:1 so I don't care if he calls or folds.

      Based on his reaction I'm guessing you left $40-$45 on the table.


      • Dilly
        Dilly commented
        Editing a comment
        Definitely cheating a little to label 22-66 as marginals since they have no ability to check call all the way down, you're right.

        I like the idea of mixing in some of the weaker club draws as raises, gives us better coverage on more turns, but slightly harder to implement in the sense we make more mistakes over-bluffing, but again not the worst mistake at these stakes. Also like thinking about how that makes it easier to check some nut heart draws on the turn.

        Based on his reaction, I think you're 100% correct he calls a small bet on the river. My thought at the time was a big part of his range is going to be JX and club draws. He folds all the club draws, we lose to AJ, we lose to any weird slow played nuts, and I questioned whether he would call with KJ or worse....but yeah based on his reaction he probably would have.

      • 1Peter510
        1Peter510 commented
        Editing a comment
        My default at 1/2 is nobody folds pairs and only raises 2 pair+. I would be a little worried about AJ or AT, but we block those (6 combos of AJ, 8 combos AT) and he has lots of combos of JX that will call. KJ (12), QJ (12), JT (3 or 12), J9s (3), and maybe J8s/J7s.

        Plus, you get some quality info when you bet the Ace...

        If he gets angry before slamming his cards in the muck. Then you know he folds pairs and is scared of overcards hitting. Now you can steal lots of pots from him.

        If he calls, then you know he doesn't fold a pair or calls with a weak Ace.... now you can value bet better and bluff less when he shows he has a pair....

    • #6
      Also think villain can have AA,KK,QQ in his range in this hand. I dont think I would consider his overpair or nut hands slowplayed because he didn't have to bet ,you did it all for him , if he re-raises you he would be just letting you off the hook I think. So I would think he has all overpairs and top pairs after his flop call he can still have sets aswell but that's my opinion